Tropes vs. Women / #GamerGate Conspiracies

[Brandon Strader]

Dante's Inferno was a totally 100% original game that was not based on any source material, and therefore is a perfect example.

Yeah I found that completely idiotic to use as an example

[Phaze]

Why would that be idiotic? Did you not pay attention to the end of the video? She plainly states that violence against women is not, in and of itself, a bad thing. Obviously, EA took liberties with Dante's original work, so they COULD have taken liberties to give the wife a back story, a personality, show her fighting back, done all sorts of things to give her agency. Instead, they brutalized her.

They had a choice in what to change from the original Dante and they, by her estimation, chose wrong (as far as violence towards women is concerned). Seems like a perfectly fair example to me.

[EC2151]

Well, if people like laundry lists of examples of X happening, with sermonizing about how you are buying into misogyny and all sorts of horrible statistics by supporting said products, then this might be your series of videos.

Since I am not a self-hating white male, this doesn't seem to be targeted towards me, so I take my leave from this circle-jerk.

[Brushfire]

Why would that be idiotic? Did you not pay attention to the end of the video? She plainly states that violence against women is not, in and of itself, a bad thing.

This statement completely negates any argument she has then. By going against EVERYTHING she is talking about, she might as well have just said: "Hey, Listen to me talk for 50 minutes then forget everything I just said."

[Brandon Strader]

I haven't read the original Dante's Inferno to know how close the game was to the original story, but the way it was presented in general seemed pretty faithful. As much as someone who never read the original could even suggest such a thing. Hah, I have no idea. I thought the game's treatment of Beatrice was pretty classy, all things considered.

I take my leave from this circle-jerk.

I'm getting older and uglier, I take it where I can get it

Edited May 29, 2013 by Brandon Strader

[Garpocalypse]

This statement completely negates any argument she has then. By going against EVERYTHING she is talking about, she might as well have just said: "Hey, Listen to me talk for 50 minutes then forget everything I just said."

That's all I got out of it. I don't see how she could attack parts of games that no one would have enjoyed unless they were really messed up. Putting the player in positions where they can only make one tough choice, one that they aren't going to be happy with either way, shows how people don't think the way she's saying they do.

I'm probably going to get flack for this but extremists are supposed to be bad people remember? Extremists aren't about bringing people together but about splitting them up. I have nothing against her personally but she is inviting all the negativity she is getting. That fake laugh towards Bionic Commando isn't going to help either. If she's wikipedia'ing half this stuff anyway she needs to look this up ..... well wikipedia doesnt have it but here is something just as good http://www.nakasendoway.com/?page_id=1442 Over half the stuff she was attacking was Japanese, so she needs to know some things about them before attacking them.

Though I was glad to see her shoot down any sexist attitudes that people think fighting games have. Especially her own. Guess there is no point in watching her poorly named anti-fighting game video now.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Garpocalypse

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Just reposting what I wrote back on the Joystiq article:

I'm honestly disappointed in Sarkeesian's video series. To be totally honest, it seems to have the same level of utility that every paper that I and classmates in both my bachelor's and master's Psychology degrees have written over the course of eight years, which is to say none at all; It just regurgitates the same information that we've known for years without offering any real science or solutions to the issue at hand. I think my biggest overall complaint is how she frames her arguments as an extension of feminist interests as opposed to creating better narratives and doing a better overall job of creating a good game in general. She picks examples of games that liberally use boring writing tropes that are just as guilty of being terrible games. I mean really? Using Duke Nukem as an example of anything? Dante's Inferno? These are games that nobody ever cared about even upon release!

I have much more to add, but I'm still trying to organize my thoughts on all of this, but really, I guess my main criticism is that she doesn't seem interested in what is best for the industry, creative mediums and women's issues as a whole, as much as it's about what she wants.

I also added a preamble about respecting opinions and what not, but you guys are relatively rational, so that ain't needed here.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Malaki-LEGEND.sys

[The Coop]

I mean really? Using Duke Nukem as an example of anything? Dante's Inferno? These are games that nobody ever cared about even upon release!

Duke Nukem 3D (which was featured specifically) is still regarded as one of the best FPS of its day. So I'm guessing you're referring to Duke Nukem Forever (which was also featured specifically)?

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Duke Nukem Forever specifically, but isn't it also agreed that outside of being a great FPS for its time, Duke Nukem as a series is just an over the top parody of pretty much everything action movie?

[zircon]

This statement completely negates any argument she has then. By going against EVERYTHING she is talking about, she might as well have just said: "Hey, Listen to me talk for 50 minutes then forget everything I just said."

But that wasn't the complete statement at all, she was saying even if any one example isn't that big of a deal, it's the trend, and how it ties in with our culture and real-world issues of violence against women.

I think my biggest overall complaint is how she frames her arguments as an extension of feminist interests as opposed to creating better narratives and doing a better overall job of creating a good game in general

You're watching these with the wrong expectations I think. The whole thing has been framed from the start as tropes vs. women, not a critique of game design or narrative in general. If you want general game design/narrative critique then watch Extra Credits, this is obviously more specialized.

[Brushfire]

You're watching these with the wrong expectations I think. The whole thing has been framed from the start as tropes vs. women, not a critique of game design or narrative in general.

It seems that is what she is trying to do though, either inadvertently or actively trying. Most likely it is the former, but her wording seems to make it seem to be the latter.

[Bleck]

the problem with the second video is still the same as the first one; she's pointing out what the problem is but without giving any clear parameters as to what the solution is

I think I probably asked earlier in the thread how, since we know what needs to change, how it needs to change, but it doesn't really seem like anybody knows or cares about that

[zircon]

It seems that is what she is trying to do though, either inadvertently or actively trying. Most likely it is the former, but her wording seems to make it seem to be the latter.

I think the title of the video series makes it pretty obvious, not to mention the description for the Kickstarter itself...

the problem with the second video is still the same as the first one; she's pointing out what the problem is but without giving any clear parameters as to what the solution is

I think I probably asked earlier in the thread how, since we know what needs to change, how it needs to change, but it doesn't really seem like anybody knows or cares about that

Her stated purpose on the Kickstarter page was to help create and amplify conversations about these topics, and possibly "get the attention of the gaming industry to start creating more interesting, engaging and complex female characters, that avoid the standard boring cliches."

This is one of the longest threads on OCR, the discussion quality is fairly high, and there are many discussions like this all over the internet. IMO she is definitely achieving her goal. I think it would have been too lofty to try and not only analyze and raise awareness but also try to solve the problem all at once... surely everyone would jump on her for having the "wrong" solution, considering there is disagreement as to whether there is a problem to begin with.

[Bleck]

yeah you're probably right

[The Coop]

Duke Nukem Forever specifically, but isn't it also agreed that outside of being a great FPS for its time, Duke Nukem as a series is just an over the top parody of pretty much everything action movie?

To be sure. It's that over the top quality that helped it stand out thanks to its tongue-in-cheek nature (along with the swearing... and the booby girls).

[The Derrit]

Of course if you look at any of these games in isolation, you'll be able to find incidental narrative circumstances to "explain away" the inclusion of violence against women as a plot device

On the surface, victimized women are framed as the source of the hero's torment. But if we dig a little deeper into the subtext, I would argue the true source of the pain stems from feelings of weakness and/or guilt over his failure to perform his socially prescribed, patriarchal duty to protect his women and children. In this way, these 'failed hero' stories are really about the perceived loss of masculinity, and the quest to regain the masculinity

So to be clear here, the problem is not the fact that female characters die or suffer... to say that women could never die in stories would be absurd

also she is wearing the exact same outfit with her hair falling the exact same way as the first episode. which means she's just been sitting on this for months

i'm done i can't do this again

Edited May 29, 2013 by The Derrit

[Annie Felis]

She probably wrote and filmed all the episodes at once, or at least a few at once. It's no different than how TV does it, and I don't hear anybody complaining about Mythbusters or Dr. Who "sitting on" episodes.

[Ramaniscence]

She probably wrote and filmed all the episodes at once, or at least a few at once. It's no different than how TV does it, and I don't hear anybody complaining about Mythbusters or Dr. Who "sitting on" episodes.

I believe the issue here is that those shows are released on a regular schedule that is made available to the public. If they were not to be released within this schedule then they'd, at very least, release some kind of information letting people know when they could expect them.

As far as I am aware, she hasn't committed to any schedule, nor has she really kept anyone informed on her progress. I'd guess people feel this is a big deal, as some have actually put money toward the project. To some it seems professional to keep those "investors" informed.

Not that she has to do that, but that's the expectation. Similarly so, if an episode of Mythbusters or Dr. Who aired one day, at some time, and then next one would air "eventually", I'm sure it wouldn't go over well. Even more so if the public found out that episode was immediately available for release, but was not. I think also in that situation a little communication would be beneficial.

[Phaze]

also she is wearing the exact same outfit with her hair falling the exact same way as the first episode. which means she's just been sitting on this for months

i'm done i can't do this again

I certainly hope you are, because I, for one, am sick of posts like yours clogging up good discussion.

[Lyrai]

I haven't read the original Dante's Inferno to know how close the game was to the original story, but the way it was presented in general seemed pretty faithful. As much as someone who never read the original could even suggest such a thing. Hah, I have no idea. I thought the game's treatment of Beatrice was pretty classy, all things considered.

The game has as much in common with the first third of The Divine Comedy as Dragonball Fucking Z has in common with Journey to the West.

Dragonball Z may be more faithful to it's source material.

[crypto_magnum]

I just got around to watching part 2. Man, that was depressing to see 25 minutes worth of examples of violence against women. I was hoping for a more... I suppose, "insightful" approach. Once again, I don't feel like I really learned anything new. But maybe I'm not really the primary intended audience, and that's okay.

One of the big problems surrounding the issue of harmful female representation in gaming is that a lot of people are still denying it. A lot of dudes (and some dudettes such as KiteTales) think this stuff is no big deal, or that it can be solved with an attitude change in the gamer. A positive attitude is great, but there's a big difference between facing stereotypes with thick skin, versus dodging them by sticking one's head under the sand. Perhaps this is the audience which is in most need of being reached. And what better way to raise consciousness on the issue than to bombard viewers with example after vivid example for nearly half an hour? It's brutal, but hopefully effective.

[Melbu Frahma]

She probably wrote and filmed all the episodes at once, or at least a few at once. It's no different than how TV does it, and I don't hear anybody complaining about Mythbusters or Dr. Who "sitting on" episodes.

I actually complain regularly about the stupid splitting of Doc Who seasons. Although I don't think I've ever done it online, to be fair.

I believe the issue here is that those shows are released on a regular schedule that is made available to the public. If they were not to be released within this schedule then they'd, at very least, release some kind of information letting people know when they could expect them.

As far as I am aware, she hasn't committed to any schedule, nor has she really kept anyone informed on her progress. I'd guess people feel this is a big deal, as some have actually put money toward the project. To some it seems professional to keep those "investors" informed.

Not that she has to do that, but that's the expectation. Similarly so, if an episode of Mythbusters or Dr. Who aired one day, at some time, and then next one would air "eventually", I'm sure it wouldn't go over well. Even more so if the public found out that episode was immediately available for release, but was not. I think also in that situation a little communication would be beneficial.

^ This, pretty much. If she at least said, "Look for part 1 of episode 2 on this date," and then when that showed said, "Look for part 2 of episode 2," etc, I think people would be a heck of a lot more forgiving.

[The Derrit]

I certainly hope you are, because I, for one, am sick of posts like yours clogging up good discussion.

nice potshot that says absolutely nothing valuable about the content of my post and clogs up discussion

lurk more

[Brushfire]

Another thing that stuck out to me is her saying that the wives and daughters killed were possessions of the male lead. I dunno about most people, but I for one never viewed them as such.

[relyanCe]

Another thing that stuck out to me is her saying that the wives and daughters killed were possessions of the male lead. I dunno about most people, but I for one never viewed them as such.

that is because your misogyny is SO internalized that even your empathy and care are actually just subsets of your patriarchal, dominating, priviliged nature, and that your desires for revenge/redemption in light of those losses are really just a desire to feel like your privilege-engorged dick is big again