Super Smash Bros. 4

[Phaze]

I *really* hope that they don't put Pac-man in simply because if I'm getting a Namco rep, it had better be Lloyd Irving. Or at least SOME "Tales of" character.

[Bleck]

I highly doubt Puck-Man will be there seeing how the creator is downplaying 3rd party characters and talking about how the 3ds will have the same roster. Maybe we we have a lowered character count?

I think he's talking about downplaying 3rd party characters in response to all the people crawling out of the woodwork and suggesting fuckin' BAYONETTA and SEPHIROTH and MARCUS FENIX

[Garrett Williamson]

Is Sonic returning?

I mean, SEGA and Nintendo have made a partnership now, so I'm thinking "yes", but I don't know. They didn't show any gameplay footage of him...

Of course, I didn't see much of like Captain Falcon either so

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

If they go for a Tales character(which they'd be stupid not to do), they're probably going to go for a character from a Nintendo-bound entry in the series, which could go anywhere from Phantasia, to Symphonia 1 & 2, to Graces, to Hearts and Innocence. I'd imagine they'd want to stay away from Sword wielders given that there are already so damn many, with pretty much a guaranteed inclusion of Link/Young Link/Toon Link and Chrom/Marth/female Marth(Lucina).

Although honestly I can't see them going with anyone other than either Lloyd Irving, Kratos, or Yuri Lowell if they do.

[Bleck]

If they go for a Tales character(which they'd be stupid not to do)

really you think so because I think the exact opposite thing

[Brandon Strader]

A Tales character? Like from the Sonic series?

[The Derrit]

If they go for a Tales character(which they'd be stupid not to do), they're probably going to go for a character from a Nintendo-bound entry in the series, which could go anywhere from Phantasia, to Symphonia 1 & 2, to Graces, to Hearts and Innocence. I'd imagine they'd want to stay away from Sword wielders given that there are already so damn many, with pretty much a guaranteed inclusion of Link/Young Link/Toon Link and Chrom/Marth/female Marth(Lucina).

Although honestly I can't see them going with anyone other than either Lloyd Irving, Kratos, or Yuri Lowell if they do.

i can't see them adding any tales character because the tales series is not taken that seriously in America at all (dunno about Europe) and even in Japan it's a fairly niche market rpg

plus does it fit with nintendo characters? not even close. does mega man? yeah. did sonic? yeah. snake? yeah. some anime dude with a red coat and a sword? not really.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Someone please enlighten me as to how Snake(especially Snake), Sonic, and Megaman make more sense to be included in Smash Bros. than a character from what was essentially considered a killer app for its time on a Nintendo platform AKA Tales of Symphonia?

Your "arguments" reek of "I don't want this, therefore it's stupid!" sentiment.

Of course there's more to be said about The Derrit's argument, but I already feel like an asshole as it is right now.

[Ptazza]

Someone please enlighten me as to how Snake(especially Snake), Sonic, and Megaman make more sense to be included in Smash Bros. than a character from what was essentially considered a killer app for its time on a Nintendo platform AKA Tales of Symphonia?

Your "arguments" reek of "I don't want this, therefore it's stupid!" sentiment.

Of course there's more to be said about The Derrit's argument, but I already feel like an asshole as it is right now.

It's a fanservice game, sheer popularity is all that's needed to be included alongside a link to nintendo.

Sonic, Snake and Megaman are all crazy popular and all have ties to nintendo at one point in their life. Especially Megaman who has spent most of his life there.

[DarkeSword]

Sonic, and Megaman

Sonic was Mario's rival back in the 16-bit era. He's an incredibly important character in the context of Nintendo's history with their old rival Sega.

Mega Man is an iconic NES-era character. There is probably no other character outside of Nintendo's own first-party roster that exemplifies the 8-bit gaming like he does.

Lloyd Irving is the main character in a niche JRPG that was re-released on PS2 and is being re-released on PS3. I know you like the Tales series but it's really not as popular as you're making it out to be.

Smash Bros. is, generally speaking, a mascot fighter. Nintendo can do more obscure characters from their own first-party titles (Fire Emblem characters, random Pokémon, Mr. Game & Watch, etc.) because they own them and it's fun for them to bring those kinds of characters to the forefront, but for the most part it's about iconic characters duking it out.

Lloyd isn't really a mascot character; no Tales character is. He's not immediately recognizable to anyone who isn't really into JRPGs. It's not impossible, but it's highly unlikely that Smash Bros. will feature a Tales character as a fighter. Pac-Man is probably going to be Namco's representative; he's iconic, immediately recognizable, and has crossed over into a Nintendo game before (the arcade version of Mario Kart).

[metaphist]

i can't see them adding any tales character because the tales series is not taken that seriously in America at all (dunno about Europe) and even in Japan it's a fairly niche market rpg

plus does it fit with nintendo characters? not even close. does mega man? yeah. did sonic? yeah. snake? yeah. some anime dude with a red coat and a sword? not really.

Um, Tales is not niche in Japan, it's just behind FF and DQ in terms of popularity. And considering that including a character in Smash would be Namco/Bandai's best way to increase it's popularity in the states, there's quite a good chance of it.

I'm willing to be Marth and Roy were also "just some anime dudes" to most Americans back when Melee came out. In fact, Melee came to the US before the first Fire Emblem made it here, IIRC.

Edited June 14, 2013 by metaphist

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Um, Tales is not niche in Japan, it's just behind FF and DQ in terms of popularity. And considering that including a character in Smash would be Namco/Bandai's best way to increase it's popularity in the states, there's quite a good chance of it.

I'm willing to be Marth and Roy were also "just some anime dudes" to most Americans back when Melee came out.

Well I'm glad someone else said it. Darke, that was eloquently worded, but you neglected to explain the appearance of Solid Snake alongside the others mentioned. I can't think of a single Metal Gear game that was released on a Nintendo system that people didn't think of as niche outside of the rerelease of MGS3. Twin Snakes was ridiculed pretty harshly, and very few fans outside of a dedicated niche played Metal Gear 1 and 2 before the MGS series of games. And regardless of whether or not it "makes sense", Mega Man and Sonic are both 3rd party IPs, and in a discussion involving 3rd party IP, I don't see how they'd any more of a better fit. Hell, why don't we add Simon Belmont in the mix? He was in Captain N!

By contrast, the entire Tales franchise literally pushes consoles in Japan. In fact, several of the largest console bumps(and the only reason the 360 even made a dent in the country) was because of Tales of Vesperia, Tales of Graces, and Tales of Xillia.

You guys talk about relevance in the west(does that matter for a Japanese company? ), but to add to Metaphist's point, I'm willing to go as far as saying Fire Emblem's continued existence as a series has a lot to do with if not completely due to Roy and Marth's inclusion in Melee.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Malaki-LEGEND.sys

[Ptazza]

Well I'm glad someone else said it. Darke, that was eloquently worded, but you neglected to explain the appearance of Solid Snake alongside the others mentioned. I can't think of a single Metal Gear game that was released on a Nintendo system that people didn't think of as niche outside of the rerelease of MGS3. Twin Snakes was ridiculed pretty harshly, and very few fans outside of a dedicated niche played Metal Gear 1 and 2 before the MGS series of games. And regardless of whether or not it "makes sense", Mega Man and Sonic are both 3rd party IPs, and in a discussion involving 3rd party IP, I don't see how they'd any more of a better fit. Hell, why don't we add Simon Belmont in the mix? He was in Captain N!

By contrast, the entire Tales franchise literally pushes consoles in Japan. In fact, several of the largest console bumps(and the only reason the 360 even made a dent in the country) was because of Tales of Vesperia, Tales of Graces, and Tales of Xillia.

You guys talk about relevance in the west(does that matter for a Japanese company? ), but to add to Metaphist's point, I'm willing to go as far as saying Fire Emblem's continued existence as a series has a lot to do with if not completely due to Roy and Marth's inclusion in Melee.

I like how you ignored me, it makes you look more foolish.

Snake may have the slightest of connections to nintendo (though for the record most folks I know like Twin Snakes even if the cutscenes are a bit hilariously OTT) but he was included more because I heard Sakurai was close friends with Kojima and Kojima was begging for Snake to be in Melee but it was too late in development for it to be possible so he was placed in Brawl instead.

Snake is an easily recognisable character in the Video Game world and is incredibly popular and most-importantly recognisable to the mass-market. Individual protagonists from a tales game...aren't as recognisable.

[Cecilff2]

I like how you ignored me, it makes you look more foolish.

Snake may have the slightest of connections to nintendo (though for the record most folks I know like Twin Snakes even if the cutscenes are a bit hilariously OTT) but he was included more because I heard Sakurai was close friends with Kojima and Kojima was begging for Snake to be in Melee but it was too late in development for it to be possible so he was placed in Brawl instead.

Snake is an easily recognisable character in the Video Game world and is incredibly popular and most-importantly recognisable to the mass-market. Individual protagonists from a tales game...aren't as recognisable.

Roy and Marth were pretty recognizable weren't they? So was Lucas. A few seriously popular characters here in america.

[Sir_NutS]

Someone please enlighten me as to how Snake(especially Snake), Sonic, and Megaman make more sense to be included in Smash Bros. than a character from what was essentially considered a killer app for its time on a Nintendo platform AKA Tales of Symphonia?

Your "arguments" reek of "I don't want this, therefore it's stupid!" sentiment.

Of course there's more to be said about The Derrit's argument, but I already feel like an asshole as it is right now.

Sometimes I think bleck is too blunt but really this just deserves it because it's so ridiculous.

Do I even need to explain why Sonic was in smash brothers? I mean you have to have been born after sega went defunct as a console maker to not know why. And even then, people tlak about it all the time.

Mega Man is there because he's goddamn Mega Man. 9 classic megaman games on nintendo consoles. 3 from the X series, all of them from MMBN, all of them from MMZ, and all of them from ZX. Not counting other spinoffs which also were in nintendo consoles. There is no other mascot outside of nintendo which represents better the nintendo brand.

Snake was there because SNAKE. Kojima has been a fan of nintendo all his life but he doesn't make games for their consoles anymore because it's just not their market. He practically begged Sakurai for him to be included. Snake is one of the most popular characters in videogames and although he doesn't represent nintendo all that well nowadays, his popularity eclipses most other franchises.

Now I want to aks you, who the fuck cares about tales? I mean seriously, I like the games a lot, but who the hell thinks of nintendo when they think of tales, moreover, none of their characters is famous enough to even be remotely considered. We're talking about competing with the likes of brand recognition such as pac-man, sonic and mega man. I mean, Why am I even explaining this?

Roy and Marth were pretty recognizable weren't they? So was Lucas. A few seriously popular characters here in america.

They were included because they are friken nintendo characters. Is this so hard to understand?

[Ptazza]

Roy and Marth were pretty recognizable weren't they? So was Lucas. A few seriously popular characters here in america.

Unfortunately I can't agree with you. Neither me nor my friends knew who Roy or Marth were, I'd only played Sacred Stones at the time so I knew the franchise but not the characters even though I liked how they played. As for Lucas (or worse Ness) I had no idea who they were, in fact come Melee's launch I didn't know what Earthbound was at that point.

So no I don't think they were exceptionally recognisable.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

If they were included strictly on the basis that they were Nintendo characters, then where's Balloon Kid? Where's Wart? Where's Saki from Sin & Punishment? With Marth and Roy, we were specifically referencing relevance and general popularity of the characters outside of their home markets.

In regards to Kojima's begging, that doesn't change the fact that Snake is still a third party character with hardly any actual relevance to anything Nintendo outside of a few games which are FAR more niche on Nintendo platforms than those of the Tales series(again, home markets). Seriously dude, go check out the sales numbers. We can wait.

I didn't mean to ignore you Piazza, but I think Cecil makes a clear enough point on that front.

[DarkeSword]

Unfortunately I can't agree with you. Neither me nor my friends knew who Roy or Marth were, I'd only played Sacred Stones at the time so I knew the franchise but not the characters even though I liked how they played. As for Lucas (or worse Ness) I had no idea who they were, in fact come Melee's launch I didn't know what Earthbound was at that point.

So no I don't think they were exceptionally recognisable.

He was being facetious.

Well I'm glad someone else said it. Darke, that was eloquently worded, but you neglected to explain the appearance of Solid Snake alongside the others mentioned. I can't think of a single Metal Gear game that was released on a Nintendo system that people didn't think of as niche outside of the rerelease of MGS3. Twin Snakes was ridiculed pretty harshly, and very few fans outside of a dedicated niche played Metal Gear 1 and 2 before the MGS series of games. And regardless of whether or not it "makes sense", Mega Man and Sonic are both 3rd party IPs, and in a discussion involving 3rd party IP, I don't see how they'd any more of a better fit. Hell, why don't we add Simon Belmont in the mix? He was in Captain N!

By contrast, the entire Tales franchise literally pushes consoles in Japan. In fact, several of the largest console bumps(and the only reason the 360 even made a dent in the country) was because of Tales of Vesperia, Tales of Graces, and Tales of Xillia.

You guys talk about relevance in the west(does that matter for a Japanese company? ), but to add to Metaphist's point, I'm willing to go as far as saying Fire Emblem's continued existence as a series has a lot to do with if not completely due to Roy and Marth's inclusion in Melee.

I didn't talk about Snake because it's a well known fact that he was included due to a personal request made by Kojima to his friend Sakurai. But even then, Snake is an iconic, immediately recognizable character, and he does have connections to Nintendo's 8-bit era.

Tales is popular in Japan and in the western JRPG fanbase, of course, but the characters are not iconic. They are not mascots. Combined that with the fact that they are not Nintendo characters, we can safely say that it is very unlikely that the new Smash Bros. game will feature a Tales main character. I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm just saying it probably won't happen.

If they were included strictly on the basis that they were Nintendo characters, then where's Balloon Kid? Where's Wart? Where's Saki from Sin & Punishment? With Marth and Roy, we were specifically referencing relevance and general popularity of the characters outside of their home markets.

I'm not sure what argument you're making here. They included Fire Emblem characters because they wanted to do that, and they were able to easily do that because those guys are first-party Nintendo characters. They didn't include the other Nintendo characters because they didn't want to. Including some characters doesn't mean they have to include all characters.

In regards to Kojima's begging, that doesn't change the fact that Snake is still a third party character with hardly any actual relevance to anything Nintendo outside of a few games which are FAR more niche on Nintendo platforms than those of the Tales series(again, home markets). Seriously dude, go check out the sales numbers. We can wait.

Metal Gear Solid isn't niche. It's not "niche on Nintendo platforms." You can't be niche on one platform and mainstream on another. Individual games in a worldwide best-selling franchise aren't "niche." It's extremely well known. Kojima's request actually does change everything about Snake's inclusion, because it's purely about a guy doing a favor for his friend. That's it. All the other stuff about Metal Gear Solid and Nintendo doesn't factor in at all. It's a successful franchise, the creator is friends with the producer, so they just do it.

Edited June 14, 2013 by DarkeSword

[metaphist]

...I'm willing to go as far as saying Fire Emblem's continued existence as a series has a lot to do with if not completely due to Roy and Marth's inclusion in Melee.

To add to my edit, which was lost in the fray: the first US Fire Emblem came out about a year after Melee, so yup.

Also, Game and Watch. Who, outside of the most hardcore gamers, knew who the hell THAT was before Melee? Neither US nor Japan. Surprises are by no means out of the question for the Smash series.

[Sir_NutS]

If they were included strictly on the basis that they were Nintendo characters, then where's Balloon Kid? Where's Wart? Where's Saki from Sin & Punishment? With Marth and Roy, we were specifically referencing relevance and general popularity of the characters outside of their home markets.

In regards to Kojima's begging, that doesn't change the fact that Snake is still a third party character with hardly any actual relevance to anything Nintendo outside of a few games which are FAR more niche on Nintendo platforms than those of the Tales series(again, home markets). Seriously dude, go check out the sales numbers. We can wait.

I didn't mean to ignore you Piazza, but I think Cecil makes a clear enough point on that front.

Those nintendo characters you mentioned may very well be in future smash bros installments, even this one. After characters such as mr game and watch and ice climbers made appereances anyo of the lesser known NINTENDO characters may have a chance.

For the last time, here's why snake got included:

1-Sakurai and Kojima are friends

2-Kojima begged sakurai to do it. He had been begging him since melee.

3-he is Snake.

4-He is SNAKE. One of the most popular and recognizable characters in videogames alongside the likes of master chief and simon belmont.

But yeah, let's all sit down to wait for what's his face from tales of whatever to show up. makes perfect sense indeed, such recognizable faces that are able to compete with the likes of pac man and mega man for a spot. Yup.

Sigh, I'm out.

[metaphist]

But yeah, let's all sit down to wait for what's his face from tales of whatever to show up. makes perfect sense indeed, such recognizable faces that are able to compete with the likes of pac man and mega man for a spot. Yup.

Sigh, I'm out.

No one is saying Tales characters are as guaranteed as Pac-Man. But it's equally naive to think Namco/Bandai didn't sit down with Nintendo and jock to get other characters in because they'd be complete idiots if they didn't. I wouldn't be surprised if a Tales character made it in, and I wouldn't be surprised if one didn't. That is all.

[PixelPanic]

Fairly certain the Villager will be similar to Olimar in response. It's cool to know he's a character, but he'll be hard to learn and infrequently used outside of random selection. That said, all of these characters rock! Can't wait for more reveals in the next months.

[Bleck]

I wouldn't be surprised if a Tales character made it in, and I wouldn't be surprised if one didn't. That is all.

yeah that's cool but see you're wrong so

[metaphist]

yeah that's cool but see you're wrong so

Yea? Well, shut up.

Moving right along, who else can we argue about the chances of? Inb4 Geno.

[Sir_NutS]

Yea? Well, shut up.

Moving right along, who else can we argue about the chances of? Inb4 Geno.

Geno would be a legitimate possibility if the relations between square and nintendo weren't so terrible. It would be awesome, yes, but at this point pretty far from reality. Don't think we'll ever see it honestly.