Lemonectric Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I think what we've learned from this thread is that people judge you based on how you vote, so you shouldn't vote at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KgZ Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) If that's your criteria---production primarily, and if everyone were to use the same criteria, then no amateur would ever get voted for, no matter how amazing their arrangement is. Is that what you want? That's the beauty of competition. We all come from different backgrounds, with different skill sets and different methods for composition and production. If feel like a weaker player, I want to step my ass up so I can take the "better" guys down. It's not undermining, it's having the motivation and drive to win. My placement result would feel so much more rewarding. EDIT: 30 seconds is a damn long time. If this wasn't a contest and I'm listening to just music for fun, it's probably realistically around 10-15 seconds of buffer. A good track can hook you in immediately, or draw your attention long enough to see where it goes. Edited July 31, 2013 by KgZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troyificus Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I am but a simple Englishman, but I tend to vote depending on how much I enjoy the song...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orlouge82 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Encouraging people to put a damper on their creativity for the sake of making the sources blatant to the listener seems a little silly to me As a non-musician listener, I 100% agree. When I'm intimately familiar with the sources, I can easily recognize even the most liberal of rearrangements. Also, I actually find a song more enjoyable if one source has a stronger presence than the other. For example, one of my favorite songs from any compo is WillRock's "Walking Weapons Unit" from the GRMRB 2011. The lead was heavily, heavily Napalm Man (I think of it as a mostly Napalm Man remix), but Elec Man was still present throughout the entire song in some form or another. To me, it takes a great deal more skill as a composer to pick one of the two sources as the dominant one in a remix while seamlessly integrating the other source into the song in other, less obvious ways. "The Sky Demon" did a great job with that. Tengu Man was much more apparent than Moliarty's Tower, which had been more extensively rearranged to fit with a Tengu Man lead, but both sources were there, and the song was far more cohesive and less jarring for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamphibious Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I am but a simple Englishman, but I tend to vote depending on how much I enjoy the song...? Preach it, brotha! Hey, everyone has their own approaches to this. Darke has some guidelines for voting and both sources should be used in a mix and all that jazz, but at the end of the day someone is gonna vote in the way they wanna, with their own personal bias. Objectivity is hard to come by, but lets all make some great music! The great thing about the Wily gauntlet is that it isn't elimination style, giving everyone a chance to continue to practice making music and get some quality feedback from the community. To me, that's what matters most about this. Still gotta vote this week, its a strong batch! Tough choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkeSword Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Source usage is the most important criteria, but it's not the only criteria. Like we discussed before, really poor production is going to kill the desire to listen to a remix, and brilliant arrangement isn't going to be enough. Remember, the two other criteria that I specifically point out in addition to arrangement are "production" and "enjoyability." And 30 seconds is a long time; you really should be able to hook someone into listening to the rest of your arrangement in the first half-minute, even if you haven't gotten to using one of the sources yet. Also I want to make it clear that the voting guidelines are just that: guidelines. They are not voting rules. Voters are not a jury, and nobody's going to declare a mistrial because the jury didn't consider all the evidence properly. Guidelines are provided to give people an idea of the goals of the competition, to hopefully make them consider more than just one thing when voting, to get them to try and listen a little more critically. But in the end, we can't police how people are going to vote. It's literally impossible to do unless we ask people to justify their opinions and then only count their votes if their justifications are good enough. I think everyone can agree that such a process would be patently ridiculous. I would hope that voters would give each entry at least one full listen through; I personally make sure to listen through each entry, regardless of how good or bad it sounds. But everyone has their own methods, and in the end, everyone's vote counts the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperiorX Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 GUYS relax and just make good music. When you start thinking too much about it, it all goes to shit. Follow your ears and your heart. Quoted for emphasis. I know Nuts wasn't saying this in relation to this new conversation, but I think it applies nonetheless. This is basically what I live by whether I'm making music, listening to it, or voting on it. No need to make things overly complicated Let's hear more about the awesome mixes this week and what people are up to for this upcoming round! I'll post some comments myself and vote later this week for sure! So many good songs and so much funk was brought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 GUYS relax and just make good music. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh we're meant to be making GOOD music. Sorry my bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. L Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) I would hope that voters would give each entry at least one full listen through; I personally make sure to listen through each entry, regardless of how good or bad it sounds. But everyone has their own methods, and in the end, everyone's vote counts the same. This is basically what I do. Apologies for not bringing my best for this round - I do hope I can make something you'll like the next time around! Finally, once again, great entries this week, everyone! I still don't have a top three! Edited July 31, 2013 by Mr. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_NutS Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I listen to all the entries in its entirety. Most of them you can tell if they're good or bad from the start, but sometimes you don't. Last round Kingtiger's mix was a good example, it started pretty weak but it got progressively better and ended up being one of my top 3. If I had listened to only the first part of the mix (which wasn't bad, but nothing impressive either), I would have missed what made the song great. I think it's a bit disrespectful too, people put time into this, the least I can do is set some time apart for them to listen to what they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KgZ Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) I think it's a bit disrespectful too, people put time into this, the least I can do is set some time apart for them to listen to what they did. Honestly, I do it out of respect if you can believe it. I want to treat every song I listen to with my sincere thoughts and reaction, as they would with mine. I can be easy for me to say, "so many good songs," and lump them all in a category of recognizing and appreciating that these artists put effort and time into it. But can I honestly say I enjoy them, to the point of wanting to listen again? It can be truly difficult being honest with yourself sometimes. Edited July 31, 2013 by KgZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkeSword Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 The real solution is to just do listening parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_NutS Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Honestly, I do it out of respect if you can believe it. I want to treat every song I listen to with my sincere thoughts and reaction, as they would with mine. I can be easy for me to say, "so many good songs," and lump them all in a category of recognizing and appreciating that these artists put effort and time into it. But can I honestly say I enjoy them, to the point of wanting to listen again? It can be truly difficult being honest with yourself sometimes. Liking or not liking them has nothing to do with it. As I said, its true that most of the time you can tell in the first minute if its going to be a song you will like or not. However I do recognize that the people (and specially novices) are putting their best effort and their time into making their songs. The least I can do is listen to the whole thing even if I don't like it and give feedback if they ask for it. Listening to only a small part of the song and dismissing it not only can lead to a wrong judgement (as with kingtiger's example) but also doesn't help anyone. It's not about lumping them all into a category of "I appreciate what they are doing", as I vote on the songs I like the most, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumJ8 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Yeah we should make the songs anonymous I've been listening to the tracks without looking at the name, for the first minute or so. It's fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkeSword Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Yeah we should make the songs anonymous This is something that will never happen, and it's not something that's up for discussion or debate either. I absolutely refuse to omit artist information from the metadata. I'm not going to have unattributed tracks floating out there in the wild. Absolutely not an option. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KgZ Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Listening to only a small part of the song and dismissing it not only can lead to a wrong judgement (as with kingtiger's example) but also doesn't help anyone. I will happily listen to a song completely if someone wants my feedback or thoughts. But this isn't how I choose votes. We're not directly helping people, we're casting our honest opinions of what we like the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garpocalypse Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I will happily listen to a song completely if someone wants my feedback or thoughts. But this isn't how I choose votes. We're not directly helping people, we're casting our honest opinions of what we like the most. I have nothing against your way of doing things KgZ. Alot of people are like this especially now when everyone with a pc, a daw and a living room can now make pretty decent music, but i feel in a community like this we should be giving everyone every chance they can get and really actively listen to their work. Not to sound self righteous or anything but I try to give every mix in every competition at least 4 or 5 plays each before commenting on them, and with all the music thats out there now, that's probably the most amount of time i'm going to get with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KgZ Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I have nothing against your way of doing things KgZ. As a disclaimer, I hope nobody is taking my opinions to heart. To me this is healthy discussion and I'm thoroughly enjoying everyone's thoughts on this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_NutS Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I will happily listen to a song completely if someone wants my feedback or thoughts. But this isn't how I choose votes. We're not directly helping people, we're casting our honest opinions of what we like the most. Again, can you cast your honest opinion on something by just listening to 15% of it? As I mentioned early, the meat of the song could be farther down and that boring part you listened to may be trumped by the rest, and the rest may also trump most of the other songs. I can say that this applies not only to this compo but to a lot of music out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KgZ Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Again, can you cast your honest opinion on something by just listening to 15% of it? As I mentioned early, the meat of the song could be farther down and that boring part you listened to may be trumped by the rest, and the rest may also trump most of the other songs. I can say that this applies not only to this compo but to a lot of music out there. If I'm looking to impress people for judgement, that very first moment is the most important thing in world. I better damn make sure that the intro is awesome. I don't really see an excuse. If the intro of a song is boring and doesn't get interesting until a minute into the track, you should start at the minute in. I believe there's no point in having an intro if you don't make good use of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timaeus222 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) I think it's a bit disrespectful too, people put time into this, the least I can do is set some time apart for them to listen to what they did. Absolutely. If you really want to show this compo some love, give the entries a fair chance and listen to them in full! If I'm looking to impress people for judgement, that very first moment is the most important thing in world. I better damn make sure that the intro is awesome.I don't really see an excuse. If the intro of a song is boring and doesn't get interesting until a minute into the track, you should start at the minute in. I believe there's no point in having an intro if you don't make good use of it. Then I guess your standards are too high for OCR then, because I find zircon, for example, to be a complete and utter genius, and he still does 1 minute buildups sometimes, like in . It could be boring for some people, as it gets DnB at 0:51, but is ambient with rich bass in the intro, still with very interesting sounds.But can I honestly say I enjoy them, to the point of wanting to listen again? It can be truly difficult being honest with yourself sometimes. It's not about wanting to listen to them again, in this particular compo. It's about finding enough highlights in the remixer's effort in arrangement, production, and enjoyability to make you want to vote for them. It feels to me like your standards are outside the realm of this compo (whether higher or lower it doesn't matter). Edited July 31, 2013 by timaeus222 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_NutS Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 If I'm looking to impress people for judgement, that very first moment is the most important thing in world. I better damn make sure that the intro is awesome.I don't really see an excuse. If the intro of a song is boring and doesn't get interesting until a minute into the track, you should start at the minute in. I believe there's no point in having an intro if you don't make good use of it. I can name several artists that make long-winded intros that have not much special, but that lead to legendary songs. A song is just not the intro. Just like a song is just not the outro, or the chorus. It's like judging the quality of a building by just looking at the doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KgZ Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Analogies aren't going to get any where because we could go all day with comparisons that prove our opinion. An intro has a huge impression. Some are long, some are short, some don't even exist. How it is executed to the listener varies greatly. But, in most cases intros exist to build or create tension to something greater. And it's the producer's job to stay focused and make sure the listener will stay interested until the best parts. Don't blame the audience for disliking the song. That doesn't mean the song is good or bad. However, It is always, always, always the producer or composer's fault. No matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timaeus222 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Don't blame the audience for disliking the song. That doesn't mean the song is good or bad. However, It is always, always, always the producer or composer's fault. No matter what. So then, if the buildup is ultimately awesome objectively in an OC ReMix and the judges fawn over it, but is in a genre hated by many people subjectively, it is then the producer or composer's fault that the people hate the song? Something's wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KgZ Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 So then, if the buildup is ultimately awesome, but is in a genre hated by many people, it is then the producer or composer's fault that the people hate the song? Yeah. Completely. People are going to dislike certain music, even irrationally. Write music that's true to yourself, and hopefully can be targeted at an intended audience to enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.