How important is age and talent?

[Necrox]

This can go in Community, right? Well, over the past several months I've heard some great tracks from a certain artist my age that have left me feeling like I have waited too long to start and I also have just about no talent with composing, so I have felt very frustrated with music for a while now. In addition, hearing about how early Zircon started releasing his stuff brought me to a new low. I want to compose soundtracks for a living and I know the competition is fierce, so am I screwed unless I drop everything but school (I have good grades) and focused solely on music? I've only recently become consistently at work on my DAW.

Edit: Yes, I know I messed up the title....

Edited November 3, 2013 by Necrox
Grammar

[Global-Trance]

I think we all pick up some things a little better and a little quicker than others but if there's one thing I learned when approaching a craft, it's that talent is sort of a lie. In most cases, a lot of what we consider talent is a result of a lot of long term experience and practice. Things seem easy for others because they put the hours into it and can get to decent and maybe above average results in shorter time.

I guess age is a bit of a factor in that the older we get, the more responsibilities we have, thus a little less time to a craft. But with that said, it's never too late to work hard at something.

If you want to be really good at something, stay humble, know your place, connect with others doing the same thing as you, and work your ass off. Things will eventually click.

TL;DR version > age and talent are factors but humility and hard work trump everything else

[AngelCityOutlaw]

There are 16 year olds on this site and elsewhere who know their shit better than a lot of 40 year old "musicians" do.

The singer/guitarist here was just 14 when this was recorded.

[PriZm]

TL;DR version > age and talent are factors but humility and hard work trump everything else

I guess it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. I could never be a singer even if I practiced non-stop. Unlike this girl:

EDIT: unless you're trying to learn a language, I think age doesn't really matter. There are some notorious late-bloomers in pretty much every field. If you have the talent, the age at which you started practicing/learning doesn't really matter if you work hard!

Edited November 3, 2013 by PriZm

[Global-Trance]

I guess I should add the disclaimer that it applies to most things within reason.

But you all get what I mean anyways.

[PriZm]

I want to add that no matter how talented you are at something, you are going to hit a plateau at some point. In that case, talent can actually be a hindrance. If progress has always come easily to you, it's easy to get frustrated once you hit that plateau. But in order to be truly great, you have to overcome it.

[Garrett Williamson]

I am still a teenager and I've had plenty of practice with DAW programming since I was 10. my work seems to have paid off, cuz I'll admit, people don't seem to hate it.

[Meteo Xavier]

Unless you're 86 and trying to be Michael Jordan, you're never too old to get good at something. This is a false obstacle self-imposed, don't worry about it. You've got your whole life to study a craft hobby and make it your own.

The thing people forget about the young and talented, or progeny or whatever you want to call them, is that there is ALWAYS some sort of major catch to the deal. You don't get to be magically good at something without something being sacrificed.

In my travels, I've met these two people who are just plain awesome at music. One is a legitimate compositional genius and the other is a production wizard. The former writes stuff in his sleep better than most of us can obtain. The other doesn't have to do anything but LISTEN to a track and figure out all the tricks that make it up. It's pretty astounding to watch. But both of them have only achieved mediocre success relative to their talent, because both of them have bi-polar disorders, and good portions of their lives and careers are hampered because they have attacks resulting in medical and legal issues. Nothing is more frustrating than having something wonderful and not really being able to use it. You almost wish you didn't have it at all.

And think back to all the really awesome musicians throughout history. Aren't 9 out of 10 of them really fucked up people? Wasted away from drugs, sex, money squandering, ego, irascibility, depression and all kinds of other things that just come with the territory of being artistically inclined. Their stories SOUND awesome in a biography from a third-person perspective, but it isn't awesome for them. If it was, they wouldn't have sunk themselves so low in the first place.

If you haven't already, go watch the movie AMADEUS. It's not super accurate in terms of history, but the dynamic of the incredible and incredulous Mozart VS average Joseph Salieri I felt is a good demonstration of the pitfalls of talent. I myself suffer from major jealousy in terms of other artists on here (hell, it's my prime motivator), but years of actual experience softened these out once I learned the price of talent and the fact that many composers working in real music industries make in a year what I make in 6 months working half the hours they do.

These days, you don't really want to make music for a living unless you're lucky. Every millionaire music maker you know of today is just lucky. Talent and youth are not correlations to success. Keep a solid day job and you'll, ironically, have a much better chance of getting something out of your music hobby than you ever would have as a career.

[Garrett Williamson]

And think back to all the really awesome musicians throughout history. Aren't 9 out of 10 of them really fucked up people? Wasted away from drugs, sex, money squandering, ego, irascibility, depression and all kinds of other things that just come with the territory of being artistically inclined. Their stories SOUND awesome in a biography from a third-person perspective, but it isn't awesome for them. If it was, they wouldn't have sunk themselves so low in the first place.

Michael Jackson was super screwed up and weird, but artistically the freaking greatest genius in history.

Beatles had some drug issues. Greatest freaking band in history.

Prince is really bizarre. Freaking amazing musician.

Queen was a bit wacky, but they were freaking awesome.

Led Zeppelin had a drunk drummer who died of being so drunk. Tightest rock drummer in history.

Lady Ga-- oh wait.

[Nabeel Ansari]

I also feel like this when I think of things like Zircon's or Madeon's story and whatnot.

The important thing is to give no damn.

The thing people forget about the young and talented, or progeny or whatever you want to call them, is that there is ALWAYS some sort of major catch to the deal. You don't get to be magically good at something without something being sacrificed.

This is very accurate (I'm not going to explain myself, but take my word for it).

Edited November 3, 2013 by Neblix

[kitty]

I'm 24 and working on learning guitar. I used to think I'm too old for this or I can't do it but I came to realize that if I want to learn it and it takes me longer than usual then so be it.

I realize your situation is different because you want to do it for a living. The important thing to know is this: There are some people who are talented but don't study or practice often and they make some progress; and there are some who don't have innate "talent" but work hard and spend a lot of time learning but they learn because they love what they're doing.

I'm not saying everyone falls into one of those categories but that it's a spectrum and that if you really want something you should go for it!

Basically what Meteo and Neblix have said already!

Edited November 3, 2013 by kitty

[Global-Trance]

I'm 24 and working on learning guitar. I used to think I'm too old for this or I can't do it but I came to realize that if I want to learn it and it takes me longer than usual then so be it.

I realize your situation is different because you want to do it for a living. The important thing to know is this: There are some people who are talented but don't study or practice often and they make some progress; and there are some who don't have innate "talent" but work hard and spend a lot of time learning but they learn because they love what they're doing.

I'm not saying everyone falls into one of those categories but that it's a spectrum and that if you really want something you should go for it!

Basically what Meteo and Neblix have said already!

There are some people definitely who are talented but don't practice their craft because they think they can skate by with their innate skill. Part of why I mentioned humility and hard work as I have seen many people just plain stop growing because they go on and on about how smart or skilled they are. And everyone else eventually just blows past them...

Edited November 3, 2013 by Global-Trance

[kitty]

Yeah, my point was to emphasize the opposite end of that spectrum that you're advocating as well. Sorry if I wasn't clear!

[timaeus222]

No rush man. I started at 16 & 5 months and I considered myself good enough at 18 & 3 months. Now I'm almost 19 and still aiming for more improvement. You should keep doing whatever and you'll improve until you're satisfied, eventually.

So seriously, age isn't important, and it doesn't mean the older you are, the more talented you are compared to someone younger. Oh well.

Edited November 3, 2013 by timaeus222

[Garrett Williamson]

I just came across crap that I am honestly sick of and I think I might bring this point to this forum

When I say I'm a teen, I don't mean like an adult teen like timaeus over there.

I'm still a minor

and I get really sick and tired of contest rules' crap.

every time I want to enter a contest, the requirements are always that I'm at least 18 years of age.

I consider this crap. I'm going to say this. there are a lot of 25 year olds that suck compared to the stuff I do. I'm not bragging or trying to make myself look better. I am being extremely blatantly honest. there is some stuff by even 38 year old guys that is just bullcrap compared to what I can do.

now, obviously, as I've stated, I've been at music for a long time. same with film. I've been doing music for more than half of my life, and film for at least a good 5 years. I'm not as good with film and photography; I'm definitely an amateur, but I'm not crap either. I also do cartooning and animation. and while I actually haven't practiced a lot on that in a bit, I've been doing that since I was a little toddler, and I was way ahead of just about anybody in art for years. obviously there's those occasional people that like came from heaven above and somehow had the perfect gift to paint something 68 year old pros were doing at the age of 7. but in general, I was ahead of myself with art.

the same goes for music, and somewhat film (haha). but what I've noticed is that after seeing so much of stuff posted on the internet, I am clearly not the only one. there are tons of guys my age that are way freaking better than some idiots who think they do it so well at the age of 28.

to add on to all of this, while the general age of consent is 18, who can seriously tell the difference? there are 15 year olds that are mistaken for 18 year olds, and vice versa. it makes total sense to give specific rights to an 18 year old (even though he/she really is not any different from a 17 or even 16 year old), but to make the age requirement for a little contest 18 just because that's the age of consent and suddenly we're so much smarter? I don't think so. that's crap, the way I see it.

luckily, with most music contests (like remix contests and stuff), they don't count age. I think people understand that kids can actually be really freaking amazing with music; this has been very clearly proven in the past. but with film and photography, I seriously think that people still think kids have no skill in it.

I think mainly my issue is that people think there's some large difference between a 17 and 18 year old or something. lots of people clearly notice there isn't. most of my friends laugh at how angry I am that I'm not yet 18, because they don't think it's that big of a deal. and from a casual point of few, that's totally true. it's just another age with a few new rights. but to me, it sorta is a bigger deal than they think. I honestly think it's because I'm a bit more ahead and determined in my artistic areas compared to some of my friends, and that's not because I think I'm so much better than them; they just either don't care to be artistic people (like they'd rather have a PhD or something) or they just aren't as anxious about it as I am. I have been told I'm ahead of most people my age in the artistic, film/photography, and especially musical areas. and there are a lot of others my age that are the same way.

so it's just a bit frustrating when I'm not qualified for a little contest just because I don't meet some age requirement that truly shouldn't have to be used for anything except for government laws. this is more of just a law because it's been made so. unless there literally is a law saying "minors can't be in music/film/art/whatever-the-heck-else-that's-not-pornographic contests". I don't know the laws very well. I'm sure I've broken at least 70 in my life without knowing (that probably were such stupid or hidden laws that police didn't even know to arrest me).

also. it's 1am here. I'm tired and I'm probably going to regret making this post when I wake up later this morning.

thanks.

bye bye.

[kitty]

G-Mixer, you've touched on a lot of valid points. I'll do my best to answer it in the context of this topic/thread.

You're absolutely correct that age is not a good indicator of skill as individual differences muddy the waters. Age is merely a shortcut as it's considered a quick and dirty correlation to skill. Is it right all the time? Absolutely not. But is it good for guidelines? Probably.

As a teacher, I'm someone who advocates for minors. Let me tell you, I shared the exact sentiment you have regarding how 18 is an arbitrary age for giving consent because it is. Despite that, psychology and neurobiology have shown that 15 year olds have significantly different brain structures than 20+ year olds that often (not always) lead to impulsive and questionable decisions. This type of research informs policy-makers and legislatures to write appropriate policies and laws regarding minors. Most of the time these policies and laws make sweeping judgments of all young people. It's not the best, but we can't make individual assessments all the time.

Does this mean ANYTHING to a contest that has an age limit? Peripherally, yes, depending on the purpose of the contest. Does it suck for talented young people such as yourself? Yes it does. Legally, there are probably a lot reasons why the organizers of these contests don't want to include minors. I am sure they are aware they are missing out on incredible talent. And on the flip side, yes there is probably a degree of age-ist bias due to the quick and dirty age-skill correlation.

I'm not here to tell you to not care about these contests. Though there ARE alternatives and other ways to get your stuff out there. I understand your frustrations, believe me. Take that frustration and use it to keep on swimming, hone your craft, and in time things will fall in place for you and you will be noticed despite your age.

Finally, I want to reiterate the purpose of this post was to answer some of your frustrations with explanations, and to encourage you to keep your chin up.

Edited November 3, 2013 by kitty

[Damashii!!]

stuff

as I said in the video software thread (*shakes fists in air*) you kids are in a good time. When I was your age we had Fruity Loops, not any of these fancy FL studio techno stuff to make the music-making process so much easier and efficient.

Plus, G-Mixer... personally, I wish I was just a few years younger again because if I took advantage of some of the opportunities I had when I was a 'teen' I'd probably be a little bit better off right now, but that's another story. Nonetheless, I get what you're saying and why you're angry, I just see it differently (and I think anyone who is over 25+ ish can back me up on this) because as much as it doesn't seem this way, the world (ESPECIALLY music and the fine arts field) will really go out of their way to give younger people lots of incentives, as opposed to us gramdpas and grandmas... who are only a few years passed the mark.

kind of been eyeballing this thread, and this one ----> http://ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45163 as well but I kind of wanted to sit back and ponder other people's viewpoints before throwing mine in.

cutting it short (since I'll eventually get around to stating my experience/pov in that other thread), I really think that some of you are thinking just a liiiiiittle two hard about all of this music stuff, and this is coming from someone who sometimes spends months at a time at a song. If you really, really, really enjoy something (in this case, music), and you have enough grit to recognize where there's room for improvement, and you just cut out the bullshit with expectations or "how the system works" or formulas, etc., I really think you'll eventually get into a proper flow where everything works out.

I don't have a record deal or a huuuge list of contacts and a fancy portfolio (although I am in the process of trying to make my online material more... 'professional-looking' XD ), so you can take all of this with a grain of salt, but coming from someone who basically came out of his mother's womb with a guitar pick and spent years classically trained to some degree, I can say that I personally made my best stuff when I was younger and I first started recording. Sure, I'm much cleaner and better at presenting my ideas on a production-level, but honestly when I was younger I wasn't thinking "oh, should I use a tritone substitution here and then run a bitcrushed filter sweep and then automate the blah blah blah, etc.;" I wasn't focused on tone, who was listening or giving a fuck about my music, or even my 'age.' I was just putting stuff out and having fun, and honestly it's only within recent years that I've gone back into this mind set of remembering to have fun instead of constantly worrying if I'm at the prime age, if I can make a living off of this, if I'm selling out and being a square or if I'm reinventing the wheel, etc.

I know a lot of people around here will often cite that getting some music theory and production tutorials under your belt is where to go, and I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to have the fundamentals down like the back of your hand... but from somebody who's had years of practice/experimenting/wtfohgawdcrankeverythingupto11 I can surely say that sometimes it doesn't hurt to stop thinking too hard about age, 'talent,' etc.

NOT being idealistic here, it's the truth. It's never too late and unless you are unfortunately a vegetablized human living off of tubes while confined to a hospital bed I am certain that there is NO excuse, limit, or reason to fret this. I'm reeeeeeaaaally not trying to be insensitive, I just think that sometimes around here and with other creative outlets people have a tendency to self-deprecate a little too hard or prevent their own selves from any potential.

we can't all be rock stars = / = if we're not born with it or we started late we might as well fuck off.

EDIT: case in point... when I first stumbled across people like Sungha Jung or Tony Royster Jr.'s childhood videos I quit taking guitar and drums seriously and said "why bother." but then I remembered how much I love music and how no matter what as long as I'm enjoying myself it's better then worrying or comparing myself constantly (outside of motivation, of course).

double EDIT: I think in the Balance and Ruin interview/chat video a while ago L99 specifically said that he started remixing, and playing guitar in particular, later in the game (compared to everyone else at least), but look at where he is now... makin dem sexy guitar stuff like it's nothin.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Damashii!!

[JJT]

Ricky Gervais quit his job and started doing comedy at age 38. That worked out fine for him.

Don't fall into the trap of worrying about how old X or Y person was when they did X or Y. Focus on the work.

[Argle]

I started when I was 21. Which felt old at the time, but feels like a young punk age to me now. Rather than worry about age, don't get too attached to the whole professional music thing. The world is saturated with skilled musicians that no jobs exist for. Enjoy making music for yourself, and your personal improvement.

[Yami]

I started playing the keyboard when I was 5 and did until I was 11. After that I didn't have the time to continue. But a few years ago I started making music again and I'll be 29 in less than a week. I know there are a lot of younger people who have much more talent than I do, but I don't think I'm too old. You're never too old for a fun hobby

[Garrett Williamson]

as I said in the video software thread (*shakes fists in air*) you kids are in a good time. When I was your age we had Fruity Loops, not any of these fancy FL studio techno stuff to make the music-making process so much easier and efficient.

Hey I'm not THAT young lol

that's like when someone's like "I remember the days of the N64, kid". um, dude, so do I. I was born early enough to clearly remember that glorious generation of video games. granted, I have a better long-term memory than some. though some people won't believe me, I swear I can remember stuff vaguely from when I was 2. I actually started remembering things full on by the time I was 3.

listen I remember Mac OS 9 too. I remember our old iMac. it was that big colorful one that was heavy as crap and it broke down all the time. hahahaha I'm not saying I'm like 13. I'm quite close to being an adult, which is part of the reason I'm so frustrated. I'm so close yet I still have to abide by those stupid rules.

already there's little kids messing with GarageBand at the age of 4 or 5. GarageBand first released when I was like 8. Logic Pro was freaking expensive. it was like at least 1K bucks. now it's 200 and you download it.

little kids already are amazed at one point we actually installed software by putting in a physical disc.

I am not even kidding. technology moves so freaking quickly. 10 years ago, what can be done now is almost unheard of back only 10 years ago.

[timaeus222]

cutting it short (since I'll eventually get around to stating my experience/pov in that other thread), I really think that some of you are thinking just a liiiiiittle two hard about all of this music stuff, and this is coming from someone who sometimes spends months at a time at a song. If you really, really, really enjoy something (in this case, music), and you have enough grit to recognize where there's room for improvement, and you just cut out the bullshit with expectations or "how the system works" or formulas, etc., I really think you'll eventually get into a proper flow where everything works out.

Pretty much this. I'm a perfectionist, but my belief is that as long as you just do something without thinking too much about it, your ideas will just naturally flow out well. For example, eventually, you'll go through your music retrospectively and say a whole bunch of comments like, "Wow, I actually did THIS? Why...?" and "OMG THIS IS TOO LOUD". At some point you'll just reach those conclusions, and once you notice that, you can consider yourself significantly improved from before. It's a nice and quick way to check.

[WillRock]

These days, with the internet being a big factor of success, and that there is a certain degree of anonymity to that, I'd say age doesn't have such a big factor these days. Also, Grant Kirkhope was in his 30s when he was recruited to Rare. Its easy to put yourself down by saying "oh i'm 15/23/35, I should have become famous by now" or something along those lines, but if you want to truly become good and notable for something, it takes hard work, dedication, time, and honestly, a degree of maturity that comes with age. I wouldn't think there is anything to worry about.

[Phonetic Hero]

These days, with the internet being a big factor of success, and that there is a certain degree of anonymity to that, I'd say age doesn't have such a big factor these days. Also, Grant Kirkhope was in his 30s when he was recruited to Rare. Its easy to put yourself down by saying "oh i'm 15/23/35, I should have become famous by now" or something along those lines, but if you want to truly become good and notable for something, it takes hard work, dedication, time, and honestly, a degree of maturity that comes with age. I wouldn't think there is anything to worry about.

I'm still not all that old, but I've experienced a huge paradigm shift with my thinking and approach to not just music but how I think of myself in the last few years (from ~18, and I'm now 21). You absolutely cannot go into anything thinking you're the shit, that's kind of how I came into OCR a mere 2.5 years ago, and my first submission (though I was pretty butthurt about being rejected) was absolutely laughable (seriously, if any of you are curious, I'd be more than happy to send it to you so you can have a laugh at my expense), just a complete and total clusterfuck of noobiness.

But, even though you'll inevitably change and grow as you get older, the approach itself is far, far more important than age in my book. As mentioned before, you have to constantly be checking yourself, looking for ways you can improve, and immediately begin working on anything you find needs improvement in your own work. "Never stop improving" has become my philosophy since I started seriously composing/producing, and it's really only been 2.5 years. To put things in perspective, I'd been using Finale and had NO IDEA that DAWs like FL Studio, Logic, Pro Tools, etc. existed until May of 2011 (didn't even know what a "DAW" was ). If you put the time in and approach music with the right mindset, age has no bearing on your progress and success, and you can absolutely get great results in not too much time.

[PROTO·DOME]

IYou absolutely cannot go into anything thinking you're the shit

Though at that stage, if you could fully comprehend just how bad you really were, you'd never write anything.