OCRA-0008 - Sonic 3 & Knuckles: Project Chaos

[tenchibr]

Every once in a while I stop checking OCRemix for a month or two. It absolutely made my day when I come back and see a site project that I had no idea existed be released. I'm also glad I wasn't aware of the project, or the anticipation would have killed me

I'll discuss the songs in-depth after I have listened to the album all the way through a couple times (just started the 3rd disc now). All in all though, I can safely say that I am extremely happy with the results, and can add a few more remixers names to my favorites list.

I don't think this project has gotten nearly enough appreciation yet, thank you to all who were involved.

-------

On an aside note---

Mr. Snappleman/Jack Meoff, not exactly sure why I find your signature as funny as I do, but the first time I saw it I laughed my ass off, and I still "chuckle" (for lack of a better word) every time I see it.

I gotta say, as a HUGE GIGANTIC LEVEL 2001337 SONIC FAN, when I first heard about Hedgehog Heaven, I was very excited, and I never got tired of hearing it over and over again; in fact, I was satisfied that people took their time to bring tears into my eyes from all the nostalgic feelings from my childhood, which in fact I still feed my Sonic cravings up to today. I never thought another project about Sonic would show up ever again, and I came to visit the OC Website just to get, guess what, a Sonic remix that was metal to be a ringtone for my phone But instead I get what I would call an instant melodic orgasm into my ears when I first found out about this project and immediately snatched a RANDOM track.

HH was amazing, but this is legendary, and I haven't heard all of it yet, but I know what to expect, what better Christmas gift? I am very excited about this, although a month late, I hope my words still have some impact on all of the people involved in this project, know that I can't wait for more Sonic projects, it's projects like this one and HH that make me proud as a Sonic fan. Good job, actually, scratch that, good is not enough to describe the quality of this project. 'Nuff said.

[Kakumei]

I just want to go ahead and say that Walk On Water is pretty much one of my favorite songs ever now!

[bobxp]

I love this. Well, most of it. It's a shame some of them are so bad... but lots of them are extreme pwnage, which makes up for way more than that.

Currently listening to Dead Batteries... although Malicious Fingers is my favorite by far.

[D.Edge]

didn't feel the electronic remixes, but kudos to housethegreat, Snappleman, BrainCells, Kanjika, Hetcenus and Rexy - nice work

[Red Shadow]

iz güt

iz vrei güt

[Sweedumz]

I heard about the album recently and after Hedgehog Heaven I just had to get it. S3K was and still is my all time favourite platformer. I still play it to this day. Unfortunately, well... I'm going to give a rundown of each track before I discuss the album in its entireity. I hope you guys like constructive criticism, because believe me, I'm trying to be constructive here.

Scores out of five stars, from one to five.

===========================================

101 - SnappleMan - Sonic the Hedgehog and Knuckles (Title)

OK the title. Not much can really be done here. I think it works well.

Score: ***

102 - KungFuChicken! - The Wait is Over! (Data Select)

It's a nice rendition of the menu. Catchy, with zest, and true to the original.

Score: ****

103 - Rexy - Divided from Grace (Angel Island)

Excellent. Great place for the Sonic 3 intro, and I love the 2 act mix. Really evokes the journey through Angel Island Zone. Very well done.

Score: *****

104 - Daniel Baranowsky - Caution-Echidnas May Eat Your Brain (S3 Boss 1)

The funk is with this track. Great remix.

Score: ****

105 - housethegrate - Walk on Water (Hydrocity)

Awww yeah! I'm back in Hydrocity every time I listen to this track. True to the original, but older now, with more experience, and a backing band. And has the second act tune. I love this one.

Score: *****

106 - Daniel Baranowsky - Knuckleduster (Marble Garden)

Vocals, Bad! Country,WORSE!! No! No.

Score: *

107 - Hadyn - Three Ring Nightfall (Carnival Night)

This is an interesting remix. I really like the xylophone. Catchy.

Score: ****

108 - Hetcenus - That Freezing Feeling (IceCap)

This track does not evoke Icecap, or an ice cavern, or an icy lake or mountain or indeed anything from that level. The only tune I can make out isn't even from this game! I just.... I'll... talk about it later.... seriously....

Score: *

109 - Gecko Yamori - Elevator Music (Launch Base)

The track's OK but its problem is that it's just not Launch Base. I'm not feeling anything.

Score: **

110 - GaMeBoX - Robotnik Radio (S&K Boss 1)

This is interesting, but a bit slow for the original. Nice though.

Score: ***

201 - GaMeBoX - iMushroom (Mushroom Hill)

I like this one. The two tracks are there, and it evokes Mushroom Hill very well. It's original, while sticking to the plot.

Score: ****

202 - SnappleMan - Dead Batteries (Flying Battery)

Open the BombBays!!! Great remix. Two acts are represented, the original is recognised and then expanded expertly. I'm right back flying through the level as I listen. And here comes Sandopolis too. Expertly done.

Score: *****

203 - BrainCells - Live at the Sandopolis (Sandopolis)

This one does its job and does it well, going through the desert, then into the tomb, and stays with the original every step of the way. I'm sure there was not a few sand grains lodged in the instuments after this one. Excellent job.

Score *****

204 - Rexy, Hetcenus - Beneath the Ashes (Lava Reef)

I'm not in a volcano. I'm not seeing the Death Egg in the distance. I can at least make out the tune this time, but, no. It just doesn't work. Lava Reef is not a piano level.

Score: *

205 - Kanjika - The Secluded Stronghold (Hidden Palace)

I stand... in awe of this track. It's by far the best in the album. It tells the story! It tells the story!!! I'm all the way back to my first play through this level. The emotion, the excitement, the capitivation. It's all there, and so is the original track. This is incredible. Thank you.

Score: ***** (Mere stars are too vulgar a thing to give this track)

206 - Kanjika - Breathtaking Vision (Sky Sanctuary)

This is just great. What a brilliant remix. It's following the drama too, that nailbiting gauntlet chasing the Death Egg, always against the clock. Do or die time. Brilliant.

Score: *****

207 - BrainCells, SnappleMan - Scrambled Eggman (Boss)

Done and done right. You don't laugh at Dr. Robotnik sir. He laughs at you.

Score: ****

208 - Joker - Before the Storm (Death Egg)

Fairly different, but still evocative of the level, especially the second act. It's got that outer space station vibe. And yes... yes it's there....

Score: ***

209 - SnappleMan - Malicious Fingers (Final Boss)

I would have figured that any S3K album would have to include The Outer Space Machine. But you guys went ahead and topped it. Wow. This boss got the remix it richly deserved.

Score: *****

210 - SnappleMan, Ashane, norg - The Doomsday (Doomsday Zone)

Excellent chase music, but just a wee bit too much of a rockalypse. But maybe that was the point. Still, the track still flies through the asteroids and gets the emerald in the end.

Score: ****

211 - Red Tailed Fox - So Long and Thanks for All the... (S3 Credits)

After all the action, we do need to wind down a little. Great choice for a remix.

Score: ****

301 - chthonic - Red Sphere, Blue Sphere (Special Stage)

Anyone who played the Sonic 1 bonus sphere game is going to love this track. I know I did. Remember to clear the perimeters!

Score: *****

302 - Rexy - Schumacher Bar (Competition Menu)

Now this is some nice use of a piano in a song that suits it. Good take on the source material.

Score: ****

303 - Ross Kmet - Momentary Standstill (Azure Lake)

This is faithful to the original and has a nice beat. But I think it lacks the kick Azure lake needed.

Score: ***

304 - Ichitootah - Helium Stairways (Balloon Park)

This track goes to balloon park, but I think wanders out looking for candy too soon.

Score: **

305 - Hetcenus - Ivory Gadget (Chrome Gadget)

....hrmmmm... My best time in Chrome Gadject was 34'40 I think. This was not the track that was playing when I did it.

Score: *

306 - Joker - Heat Blur (Desert Palace)

This seems to play with the oasis or mirage side of Desert Palace. It's a very original remix.

Score: ****

307 - jmr - Eternal Excavation (Endless Mine)

Now this takes me back. I'm setting records all over again. Great interpretation of the original and a great place for a piano.

Score: *****

308 - Rayza - Groove Basin (Azure Lake WIP)

I think this tracks gives a better interpretation of Azure Lake. Keeps the essense of the song and adds well to it.

Score: ****

309 - AkumajoBelmont - Water on the Dancefloor (Hydrocity WIP)

I love the Knights feel to this track. But it does stray a bit too far from the original.

Score: ***

310 - Hadyn - Heads Up for Tails (Final Boss)

I really like this track, and I can tell it must have been a tough choice against 'Fingers. I think the deep notes both help and hinder the track.

Score: ****

311 - Kanjika - Stranger to Closure (S3 Credits WIP)

Trumpets sounding, but I think they may have been overkill for the credits. Could have done with the S&K Theme as a finisher.

Score: ***

312 - GaMeBoX - Ice Cap 4 Life (IceCap WIP)

Gets the tune, but doesn't fully capture the level.

Score: ***

313 - Kanjika - Hydrochill (Hydrocity WIP)

My Hydrocity is popular. This does well in the time it was given

Score: ***

314 - Xenon Odyssey - Lava Passion (Lava Reef WIP)

A proper rendering of Lava Reef. I'm not a great fan of the love song thing here. It's just not the zone.

Score: ***

===================================

OK, now for the bit you're not going to like.

-------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------

Overall Score: **

2 (of 5) stars

This may look a bit harsh, especially considering how many great tracks are on this album and how much effort went into it, but I feel this had to be given.

Firstly, the album isn't really complete. No special stage track(s)? Guys! And where's the counterpart to Sonikku Ganbattle, the tribute to the S&K theme? These are serious omissions.

But really whats gone wrong is the Icecap and Lava Reef tracks. I feel I have to address these. Essentially Different tracks do really have different weightings, and these two seriously drag down the whole album. These were the tracks people were waiting for, but were let down on.

Now, maybe you were trying to do something different with the tracks, Icecap in paticular. I can understand that, but please hear me out on this.

Icecap remixes are usually full and heavy. But really they are that way because that's what Icecap is all about. Icecap is not a slow piano track. That's not what the level played like. It was the wrong choice for a remix, very wrong. Seriously. The whole tone of the level is completely absent. Snowboarding, icicles, snow, loops, speed, all AWOL.

I have never heard a truely great remix of Lava Reef, but I have heard enough to know that again, slow piano does not capture the level. This level needs something.... more powerful, deeper. I don't know. But this track just didn't work. It wasn't what Lava Reef was about.

Anyway, enough about the bad, I want to talk about the good.

The best tracks on this album essentially take you back to the level in question, capture its character, and replay the story. Now, what's all this story business you might ask. Well, anyone who realy played S3&K back in the day can tell you that yes this game had a story.

Those crappy little 10 second cut scenes using the games engine were to us, rich with character and drama. So were most things in the game. Backgrounds, sprites, level design. Sometimes you could play the whole two acts of a level just to see Knuckles fall into the lake, or see the Death Egg in the distance. The game had style and depth in its story, and I think that it still stands today as one of the best, if not the best example of how to incorporate story into a game.

The best tracks in the album paid homage to that aspect of the game by recounting the places, themes in each level. They play back the events that made up the journey through the floating island. "Divided from Grace" recalled the firey forest. "Live at the Sandopolis" went down into the spooky tomb and got chased by the ghosts. "The Secluded Stronghold" just..... wow.... its the essence of what I'm talking about, especially since that was a "cut scene" heavy level.

This is what I think a great remix album is all about. Reliving the game through music. But of course some levels are better remembered than others. People will always have their favourite levels that they played the most. It was vital to get those levels right. So now we're back to the bad. "That Freezing Feeling" and "Beneath the Ashes".

I take it that because these two levels, probably the most popular ones, have been remixed so much in the same ways, you wanted to do something different. Again I can appreciate that, but of course that misses the point. By changing the song so much, you're no longer reliving the level. You've left out what makes the song that level's theme. It's a bit like deciding that Sushi has been done to death the way it is and you're going to try cooking the fish instead. It's just too big a step.

Icecap zone in paticular was the zone that was probably the most critical remix in the album. Who could forget the feeling of seeing Sonic snowboard down that slope, slide through the ice caverns. The loops and the speed, the view of icebergs on the lake. The music. It was vital that all those things be represented in the music, but that didn't happen. None of those things were represented. In my opinion, you need to change that rack before this can be considered a true remix album of Sonic 3 and Knuckles. That may seem very harsh, but I feel it must be said.

The same goes for Lava Reef. Perhaps not as critical as Icecap, but still one the memorable levels. I think this level needs its one great remix, which has never been done. Something that evokes the journey through half dormant magma vents. It's just never been done. But I think the version here is just too far off the mark. Lava Reef was about jumping across fire, not lying beneath ashes.

(As a side note, the best Icecap remix I ever heard was an old MIDI called Icecap_Blaster I think. It felt it really emcompassed all aspects of the level and I think anyone wanting to go for a gold remix for Icecap should look that one up.)

So in conclusion 2 of 5 stars. I'm sorry if I seem too danming, but I just had to be honest here. My taste for music probably leaves a lot to be desired, but my love of this game drives me to speak here. As it stands, the album cannot replace the original soundtrack for me in the way Hedgehog Heaven did. I really want it to, but it just can't. Not without those tracks. Again, I'm sorry to be such a downer, but, it just means a lot to me.

[GaMeBoX]

So... you wrote this long post, put a little grade + a short comment on every tune. Passing down judgement on songs, basically based on your personal taste more than on quality. Thats ok, but you could have spared me all those grades and comments, because they kind of totally loose their meaning the way you did it. Just passing on a snappy comment on a song youre dissing does nothing good, and makes you look more like an ass to me. I can agree that not all of these songs can be liked by everybody, but you have to look at each of these songs from the artists standpoint, and let them have some integrity for chosing to do a piano remix, vocal remix or whatever. A remix can build on a musical concept as much as on the feel/gameplay/atmosphere of a certain stage in a game, and for my own part, i feel, as long as interesting music has been created, then its a success. I believe the artists who have participated in this projects have as high thoughts about the S3&K OST as you, if not even higher, who knows?

[Antipode]

Saying that you think something is "too slow" (etc) for the original is a good indicator that you don't know the purpose of a remix.

[Aristobulus]

WIP does mean Work In Progress, right? One of my favorite tracks is actually Water on the Dancefloor but it clearly sounds incomplete, like it just cuts off. There any stated release date?

As for the rest, I honestly loved it all except for Knuckleduster. Vocals very rarely do it for me. It hardly matters the style, just vocals at all.

A few of them, though I still liked, I couldn't hear the source material in it. That Freezing Feeling, while I like it and it certainly does bring to mind snowy mostly iced over glaciers and such during night to me - it doesn't bring to mind *Ice Cap* in particular. I just can't hear ice cap zone in it.

Elevator music, again while I really like it all the same, I can't hear launch base zone in it.

Aside from that I don't have any complaints.

Also I'm probably one of the few to actually think the best tracks on the project are the competition menu + vs mode tracks. Then again it's probably because those source songs always were nostalgic to me for some reason.

[watkinzez]

Country

rofl?

[Sweedumz]

Thats ok, but you could have spared me all those grades and comments, because they kind of totally loose their meaning the way you did it.

I didn't elaborate my scoring method, so I may as well do it now.

Essentially, it went as follows, but I don't presume to say that my own personal tastes weren't applied where I felt appropriate.

*****: Stays true, a great remix, and replays the game through music.

****: Stays true and imporves upon the original with a great remix.

***: Stays true to the original

**: Nice remix, but strays too far from the theme.

*: Way too far from the original to be an appropriate remix.

That was more or less my method. Tracks like "The Secluded Stronghold" and "Walk on Water", accomplish 5 stars in my own personal view, for what it's worth. 3 stars means the track stayed true to the original. I can't define "staying true", but I know it when I hear it. 1 star means that the song may have been a nice piece of music, but it just wasn't a remix of the level. (To be fair, "Knuckleduster" was probably a 2, but I just don't like vocals in VG remixes.)

A remix can build on a musical concept as much as on the feel/gameplay/atmosphere of a certain stage in a game, and for my own part, i feel, as long as interesting music has been created, then its a success.

I would disagree strongly with that view. If people want to create interesting music, there are other ways to do it. If you want to create a video game remix, you're shouldering an additional responsibility to stay true to the original. If you're going to the effort of making an entire remix album for a game, then that responsibility weighs heavily on you.

Icecap and Lava Reef were keystone tracks. Again I appreciate somthing different was trying to be done, but this wasn't "just another mix" to be added to the substantial pile. This was an OCRemix site project album. When the rest had faded into obscurity, this was still going to be around. As such, these levels needed to be spoken for appropriately. And if it sounded cliched simply because so many people who loved those levels had remixed it so many times, that wasn't the level's fault.

I believe the artists who have participated in this projects have as high thoughts about the S3&K OST as you, if not even higher, who knows?

I've played Sonic 3 and Knuckles a lot. I remember at one point having eight saves so I could play through with each character with or without each special power. I played it non-stop for over 2 years. Constantly. It's one of my Desert Island Games.

I don't mean to say I some kind of S3K guru or sage. I only mean to emphasise that I loved that game. After so much play, I've got certain "impressions" about each level. I think a few of them are right.

Anyway I had to give my opinion, and my opinion is that in this case, experimentation didn't pay off. The important tracks just strayed too far. I'm not a musician, but I am a S3&K player. But I think my opinion would be representative of the latter group.

[KyleJCrb]

As someone that loves Sonic and played this game as much as you claim to, Sweedumz, I can understand your desire for the nostalgia. But, staying "true" to the original is not necessarily the point of a remix (or at least not on OCR): It's to get musically creative with a pre-existing song and whip it up into something that is your own interpretation. Whether that interpretation invokes the feel of nostalgia is completely up to the remixer, and is only optional, and isn't required for a good remix. I don't necessarily think that an arrangement needs to sound like the original to be good and listenable, because it's often the remixes that don't resemble the original in every aspect that are most interesting. After all, if I wanted to hear the original, I would just listen to the original.

You also have to remember that each person has different views, and the way you might interpret a song and how it should sound could vary WILDLY from someone else's view of the same thing. So there you go.

IceCap and Lava Reef aren't a big deal, anyway. There's better levels.

[Aristobulus]

I'd disagree with the idea that a remix doesn't have to sound anything like the source material.

If you do that, then you're basically writing your own, unique song. It's not really a remix then, but an entirely new creation.

I don't come to ocremix to hear new songs. I come to ocremix to hear new imaginative, inventive and interesting twists on songs from games I loved.

After all, if you don't want to create a remix that sounds at all like the original song, why are you even remixing it in the first place? Go somewhere else and just whip up a new song.

[zircon]

Not wanting ReMixes to be overly liberal (as we call it) is valid. We rejected Hetcenus' Ice Cap mix for that reason, among others. However, site projects are NOT bound to the OCR standards. We don't evaluate every mix on the project and see if it passes our arrangement and production bar. That would be inane and limiting. Site projects like this let artists branch out and do things that they might not normally be "allowed" to do on OCR, yet still get spotlighted on the site. Of course we do prefer if we can post the majority of the songs from the project to the site, if they were submitted.

[KyleJCrb]

I'd disagree with the idea that a remix doesn't have to sound anything like the source material.

I would also disagree with that notion. A remix that has none of the original source material isn't a remix, is it? But a remix that branches off and changes up the source material on a very liberal level, and changes the entire feel of the song, but still contains some elements, is still a remix. That's what I was getting at.

After all, if you don't want to create a remix that sounds at all like the original song, why are you even remixing it in the first place?

Because people have different views and ideas on how a certain video game songs can and should sound, and sometimes that vision may include radical departures from what's there to begin with. Certain songs strike people in different ways, so how you think a song should sound when remixed may be completely different from what I think. To me, remixing is only partially nostalgia: Over my years of listening to this stuff, I've come to appreciate the artists themselves more so than the game factor, and I enjoy a lot of remixes from games I've never even touched. Good way to discover new, fun games to play.

[Nineko]

Let's just admit that several of these remixes aren't that good.

[KyleJCrb]

That's to be expected with projects.

[Liontamer]

We rejected Hetcenus' Ice Cap mix for that reason, among others.

After Jeff clarified what he arranged and gave a time breakdown, I had no qualms about arrangement. I don't think you should have any concerns about that either, but that's not my call. I wanna stress that the "performance" aspect of the track held it back more than any other factors.

From a casual fan's eyes, part of the "problem" of having this track on the project was that most people aren't familiar with the other two source tunes added to the arrangement (from Sonic 1 [Game Gear] and Sonic 3D Blast [Genesis]). So it just sounded like Jefferson was just doing his own original thing most of the time and also barely touching IceCap. And for parts of the IceCap arrangement itself, Jeff altered the rhythms enough where I definitely didn't place the connection strongly enough when I first heard it, so I understand how others didn't make that connection.

Having said all that, I appreciate the mix more than the average listener/"overly liberal" critics, but that's because I'm privy to more information about the creative process and arrangement connections from Hetcenus himself.

If someone had a problem with this track being on a Sonic 3 & Knuckles project, a more sensible argument would have been that material from the other two Sonic games shouldn't have been involved. I don't agree with that argument personally, but it's at least a more rational argument given the overall goal of the project (i.e. to tribute S3K, rather than other games).

[Z]

I played sonic 3d blast and could identify the lava valley addition to the ice cap remix(but i wonder why there was no refernce to the sonic3d ice stage as that would have tied probably better to the snow theme of ice cap.In fact i wonder why it was added to a project that was supposed to be exclusivelly inspired by sonic 3). Nonetheless, launch base,ice cap,lava reef,and death egg, all are themes that many of us listeners find hard to make out.Many of us struggled before we could hear the source tune. Not saying they were bad, just hard to identify.

Also while I myself am a fan of live music and especially the piano,I too felt the ice cap and lava reef themes should have incorporated more instruments than solo piano so that we could here all of the background themes of those original stages only redone.An orchestra for the ice cap including a solo piano piece,or jazz/orchestra for lava reef including the piano,or something ellse.Ice cap and lava reef were my favorite tunes as well in the original game,so I can pretty much understand where the guy above(sweedumz)is coming from.

[Hadyn]

Just to add something briefly to this argument; I'd not heard the other tunes that were used in the ice cap mix but I still found the whole thing to be damn nostalgic, and it felt really cool when the full ice cap theme really began to shine through.

I loved the mix.

Same goes for Lava Reef.

[Aristobulus]

I'd disagree with the idea that a remix doesn't have to sound anything like the source material.

I would also disagree with that notion. A remix that has none of the original source material isn't a remix, is it? But a remix that branches off and changes up the source material on a very liberal level, and changes the entire feel of the song, but still contains some elements, is still a remix. That's what I was getting at.

After all, if you don't want to create a remix that sounds at all like the original song, why are you even remixing it in the first place?

Because people have different views and ideas on how a certain video game songs can and should sound, and sometimes that vision may include radical departures from what's there to begin with. Certain songs strike people in different ways, so how you think a song should sound when remixed may be completely different from what I think. To me, remixing is only partially nostalgia: Over my years of listening to this stuff, I've come to appreciate the artists themselves more so than the game factor, and I enjoy a lot of remixes from games I've never even touched. Good way to discover new, fun games to play.

It's not just me saying "oh this song sounds like it should be a techno song and if it isn't remixed as techno it sucks". I've heard remixes of songs that were made in a style I never imagined for that specific song, and still liked it.

As I said, most of the songs I'm complaining about, I actually *do* like. They're amazing songs, but I can't call them remixes. That's the thing. It's got nothing to do with what I think a remix for a song should sound like (in fact these remixes in particular still do capture the feeling I think a remix for the respective levels should) it's that I don't think they meet the basic definition of being a *remix*.

Oh, and one of my favorite remixes is Sonic 3D Blast's Blissful Eruption, a song for a game I've played a very few amount of times, only once or twice actually making it to the level the song remixes, and so I don't *at all* know the source song, yet I still love the remix.

[The Joker]

I still don't understand how people can mis the source in Death Egg. I mean, the entire twinkle parts (which are overly loud... sorry about that) are lifted directly from the song, no real arrangement except for a few omissions.

Also, the little panning synth string is playing the melody, almost note for note. Striked me as odd most people can't hear it. But then again, I, too, am quite odd.

[Hadyn]

I think people get it if they listen to both, it's just that they expect more of the main melody, rather than having the focus on what was originally a background part... Doesn't matter though, imo, it's good either way =)

[housethegrate]

Cheesus Crust, you guys. This argument has been beaten nearly to death. The only reason it's not actually dead is because people will always disagree on it! I don't give a fuck if someone thinks my arrangements "stay true" or not, because the arrangement is my creation.

This is all I have to say on the matter.

[Hadyn]

Yeah, but everyone loves your arrangement =P