Sonic the Hedgehog's sad state

[SetzerGabbiani]

Take Sonic out of the human world please... WTF WHY IS HE KISSING GIRLS?

LMFAO QFE... yeah that whole last chapter super sonic/shadow/silver thing was total crap..nuthing but SA2 with a new paint job.

I'll believe in the sonic fanchise again when they give Knuckles a playable part in the last boss, and NOT doing another pizza boy mission.

ah, dreams..

[KyleJCrb]

Then again, Sega as a whole doesn't really seem capable of making great new games anymore.

And again I will tell you to look at the work of AM2 and Amusement Vision. Some divisions of SEGA still knows what they're doing.

[atmuh]

I actually forgot that I played SA2 over 100 hours. That was a pretty rockin game if it had me addicted so long. I could never A rank all the missions though....and I really tried.

[I-n-j-i-n]

And again I will tell you to look at the work of AM2 and Amusement Vision. Some divisions of SEGA still knows what they're doing.

I can only recall Shenmue (probably discontinued forever), Virtua Fighter and the odd outsourced games to Amusement Vision. But it takes Sega years to make one good game instead of coming up with streams of great games (IMO way better and more experimental than many SNES games of its time) in its glory days.

Nintendo, to me, has fell from grace of making each games into absolute classics, but Sega did so a bit worse. It's like the only franchise that is almost faultless nowadays with the two companies is Zelda and Virtua Fighter.

[JoeFu]

I still think Mario is awesome. While most people thought SMS was stupid because of the water-pack, I didn't mind it that much. SMS really gave us some awesome platforming with the stages where the pack was removed. I hope Galaxy will deliver, but we all know that SMG will be like way better than Sega's new attempts at Sonic.

[DarkSolstice]

Yeah, they really shouldn't have called him Eggman. Granted that would be what his proper name is, but Robotnik is much better. At least in Sonic Adventure 1 he introduced himself as Doctor Robotnik...

I actually prefered SA1, though I liked SA2 as well, SA1 had the mini-games and stuff to mess with. By the sounds of it, StH is a complete mess-up. That's a disappointment as I was hoping that as the SA games progressed they would begin to improve the weaker elements.

I DO want them to give Knuckles back his stages. His collection stages sucked. Those were the weakest part, plus with the dodgy rap thing going on... I mean, WTF? He's not meant to be some guy from the Bronx or some rap legend, he's meant to be an Echidna.

They should just remake Sonic 1,2,3 and Knuckles. Properly.

[Antipode]

Nintendo, to me, has fell from grace of making each games into absolute classics.

I disagree. I don't know about you, but I can tell you that if I'd played something like wind waker or mario sunshine when I was a little kid I would have been blown away. Playing them as a teenager was still a very enjoyable and memorable experience. Maybe your tastes have just changed.

Anyway, I agree with the sentiment in this thread that Sega should strip the characters and reduce them to Robotnik, Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles. Once they develop a winning formula I agree that they should consider making 3D games (or perhaps just one) with the plots of Sonics 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles. Or maybe they could actually come up with a new and original plot which fits in the style and continuity. It hasn't seemed to have happened yet...

[Kiyosuki]

In my opinion, Sonic's fall from grace...while attributable to many smaller things...is mostly because of this.

The over reliance on the Sonic Adventure engine. I really don't think SA was that bad, like a poster here said it had good promise and seeing as how it was the first true next generation Sonic game...it could go and grow in so many new directions.

The only problem...is it didn't. It hasn't really gone anywhere since then. Every major game since that time has been some sort of stretching of the SA engine. I mean...its one thing to maintain a gameplay style, like what Mario 64 did for Mario, or what Orcarina of Time did for many of the major Zelda games since then. But its the general style, elements are still played around with and the very build...the engine of the game is rarely the same. The Sonic series has been using the same damn engine for almost 3/4th of a decade now...with almost no tweaks to gameplay, interface, even graphics to an extent...nothing.

A friend of mine and I went to last year's E3(The last one of its kind I guess now.), and when we tried the 360/PS3 Sonic demo we had a big talk about this, and how its just become totally inexcusable how lazy the Sega/Sonic Team programmers have gotten with this series. Completely new system...new character...and the game still feels exactly like all the console Sonics since Adventure and in all honesty...the graphical improvement is barely substantial as well. I was actually pretty shocked that even now on a new system, they've still barely updated this thing. Still suffers from the same camera problems, the characters' motions look exactly the same, everything feels like it was just a new level in Sonic Adventure which is just inexcusable.

So really, while there are many other problems...I think the series has lost its sense of adventure, surrealism and adrenaline, and just become sort of this generic rock/techno...thing, and the focus of each game since Adventure has been really unfocused with so many characters...among other things. But essentially, Sonic's being slowly killed with inaction and lazy programming. Because of that, these games have a stigma now for being below sub-par quality games.

Some of the 2D games have been good, and I tried Secret Rings for the Wii at E3 too and we all really enjoyed it. Its the first Sonic game in years thats felt genuinly new, its Sonic's best bet at maybe surviving this gen. But generally...the SA gameplay system just has to be shot and killed. If Sonic doesn't appear with even some sort of change or new style, it may actually be the end of the character...and I thought I'd never say that.

[I-n-j-i-n]

I disagree. I don't know about you, but I can tell you that if I'd played something like wind waker or mario sunshine when I was a little kid I would have been blown away. Playing them as a teenager was still a very enjoyable and memorable experience. Maybe your tastes have just changed.

I agree actually. It's just that in the NES and SNES days, EVERY SINGLE Nintendo game was a deemable classic. One release after another. Now, we see the constant Pokemon rehashes, the constant spinoffs and remakes on the DS and the Wii now with the few true sequels. Even with full sequels, they just don't seem to have the depth the older games did (it's impossible to compare Mario 2 to New Super Mario Bros for example. Mario 2 is so much deeper and comprehensive in every way).

Anyway, I agree with the sentiment in this thread that Sega should strip the characters and reduce them to Robotnik, Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles. Once they develop a winning formula I agree that they should consider making 3D games (or perhaps just one) with the plots of Sonics 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles. Or maybe they could actually come up with a new and original plot which fits in the style and continuity. It hasn't seemed to have happened yet...

I think they should worry more about the simple stuff like the camera and the way to use the attack moves and the character quirks and make a balanced game before they get into changing the aesthetics.

[PlaceboFX316]

As a lover of the Genesis era Sonic games, I'd like to pitch my two cents in.

What made the original Sonic games spawn legions of fans? I think it was a couple of things:

1. The best of 2D gameplay, almost perfectly melding platform challenges with a sense of speed that made the game feel modern.

2. Atmospheric fantasy worlds complete with lush backgrounds and moody music.

3. A cool protagonist and supporting cast.

So, where have we gone wrong in regards to each of these?

1. As many have documented, the 3D transition has not gone well for Sonic. I have heard many of you say there is a way to make it work. Is there, though? I'm not sure the combination of speed and platforming can successfully translate to 3D because suddenly the options are far too many. As someone said earlier, you race along and fall into a pit of spikes that come out of nowhere. I know my experience with the XBox 360 demo was frustrating in this way. I was ready to quit after 30 seconds. My conclusion is that the combo of speed and platforming is best achieved in 2D.

2. What made the Green Hill Zone and the Ice Cap Zone and countless others memorable has been lost in generic worlds. The fantasy element has been reduced and thus the series has lost some of its imagination.

3. As noted elsewhere in this thread, the cast is too large and the voice acting only goes too diminish the characters. After all, Sonic's quest always sounds much more silly when he has to verbally build a case for saving cute woodland creature by collecting gems, etc. Plus, the voice takes away the universiality of the character that Nintendo is always trying to protect with Link.

So... what to be done about it?

Tell me, who wouldn't enjoy seeing Sonic return to 2D? Don't remake old games, but go back to that formula of exotic worlds with sweet 2D sidescrolling game play. The worlds could look rediculously lush on today's systems and the gameplay could return to what made the series so enjoyable. Let Rainbow Six and Gears of War provide the 3D glitz... but take Sonic back to 2D and pimp out the levels of an obscenely long sidescroller. People would flock to it as they flock to the collected editions.

Seriously, is there anyone who wouldn't enjoy it that way?

[KWarp]

I actually forgot that I played SA2 over 100 hours. That was a pretty rockin game if it had me addicted so long. I could never A rank all the missions though....and I really tried.

Not to mention the Gamecube version was even harder. Whaaa

[The Author]

Think about it, a 2-D Sonic game on the Wii.

Jump and Spin.

Control with the pad.

Use that console to bring out the scenery at you, full speed ahead and what not.

[RealFolkBlues]

Hmmm, I just had an interesting idea, and wonder what you guys think of it.

Imagine a 3-d Sonic that places the emphasis back on speed and platforming, but does it through a simplified, maybe cel-shaded graphical style with some really cool blur effects and a good predetermined camera. The self-controlled camera of the last few games has been crap, often coming from a poor angle or pulled in too close, and I think a non-controlled camera, when done correctly, can create a terrific "scene" kind of experience.

Comments/questions/flames?

[PlaceboFX316]

Hmmm, I just had an interesting idea, and wonder what you guys think of it.

Imagine a 3-d Sonic that places the emphasis back on speed and platforming, but does it through a simplified, maybe cel-shaded graphical style with some really cool blur effects and a good predetermined camera. The self-controlled camera of the last few games has been crap, often coming from a poor angle or pulled in too close, and I think a non-controlled camera, when done correctly, can create a terrific "scene" kind of experience.

Comments/questions/flames?

Seems like its worth a try... but explain this "'scene' kind of experience" more, please.

[PlaceboFX316]

Think about it, a 2-D Sonic game on the Wii.

Jump and Spin.

Control with the pad.

Use that console to bring out the scenery at you, full speed ahead and what not.

This sounds like a game I'd enjoy.

[RealFolkBlues]

The "scene" idea I was referring to is part of why people call certain games cinematic. Essentially, when the view of the action forces your eye to follow a certain path, the game's creator leaves you with a particular impression of that scene's mood, theme, etc. For instance, if the protagonist is walking towards the main villain's fortress, and the camera comes from directly behind his feet, pointed sharply upwards to encompass the whole castle, we get a sense of awe at how big the coming challenge is, how foreboding and dark and so on. This kind of thing is done to notable effect in the Devil May Cry and Onimusha games. It was actually used in Sonic before, way back in Sonic Adventure 1, when Sonic is running from that whale and the camera is fixed in front of him.

[PlaceboFX316]

Interesting... so you're suggesting kind of a "rail camera" approach? I think I like the idea. Sonic definitely needs something special from the camera if its going to succeed in 3D.

[BigBoss]

Sonic needs to be a sidescroller. Simple as that.

[Triad Orion]

I'm afraid it's not that simple, BigBoss. Let's face it, Sonic isn't always going to be in 2-D because there's substantial demand for him to be in 3-D. While we love the 2-D games to death, not all of the market share does. And while I think seeing a new gen 2-D Sonic would be awesome, I doubt it'll happen.

What Sonic Team and SEGA really need to work on is their 3-D games, and I think RealFolkBlues might be onto something with that cinemeatic view idea. Sounds like an interesting concept. Though I would add that with a camera like that, it takes a great deal of caution to make it work without it being jerky for the player while they're running along had super high speeds.

[SlightlyOddGuy]

SSR is pretty much that kind of game already. You get all of the standard high speeds of a Sonic title, but thanks to the quasi-on rails gameplay, the camera and level design can focus more on making it look impressive without throwing the player into a wall or bottomless pit.

[Triad Orion]

In theory, yes it is. But I think RealFolkBlues had something a little grander in mind when it came to seeing the sights of the game. Now, not actually having played Secret Rings yet, I can't tell just how cinematic the game is going to be, but it could very well be the realiziation of RFB's theory. We'll have to see when it comes out in about a week or so.

[RealFolkBlues]

Triad's pretty much got the idea, though I was actually thinking somewhat of SSR and the racing sequences in previous games. Personally, I'm looking forward to Secret Rings.

[Devyn]

I gave the new Sonic The Hedgehog a try, and damn - it really really sucks the big one. I'll be giving The Secret Rings a try, though.

I still want to punch myself in the face for buying Sonic Heroes.

[Murmeli Walan]

I still want to punch myself in the face for buying Sonic Heroes.

Let's strike a deal: I'll punch you in the face for buying Sonic Heroes, and you punch me in the face for buying Shadow the Hedgehog.

[JoeFu]

Does it make me a bad person because I am actually excited for SatSR? The game just looks fun.