Street Fighter IV

[zircon]

Actually, Sirlin is pretty much a game master. He's a tournament level player not only at the Street Fighter series as a whole, but also Smash Brothers, Guilty Gear, Virtua Fighter, StarCraft, whatever. So, when he criticizes something for being off, it's not because he's comparing it to one game.

[Raziellink]

Actually, Sirlin is pretty much a game master. He's a tournament level player not only at the Street Fighter series as a whole, but also Smash Brothers, Guilty Gear, Virtua Fighter, StarCraft, whatever. So, when he criticizes something for being off, it's not because he's comparing it to one game.

Sorry to budge in on the conversation, but i don't really care what that jerk off thinks about SF4, or even if it is flawed. C'mon, the game is good, and should therefore be enjoyed. I respect his opinion, and i know the guy is good with games, but just because he doesn't like an aspect or two, that doesn't condemn this game.

Please don't be offended, i know you guys aren't taking it this seriously, i just felt like saying this.

[Flare4War]

I'm so blown away at how fun Capcom made this game to look at. The attack style of Ryu and Sakura are so awesome I can watch it all day. Plus the Sakura theme song rocks my sox. Ken has a very neat and dynamic attack style as well but Ryu's just looks a touch more brutal to me. Especially his hurricane kick.

It doesn't bother me how it goes into mini cut scenes on super moves, but some of the fighters scenes take too long.

[jayc4life]

I'm so blown away at how fun Capcom made this game to look at. The attack style of Ryu and Sakura are so awesome I can watch it all day. Plus the Sakura theme song rocks my sox. Ken has a very neat and dynamic attack style as well but Ryu's just looks a touch more brutal to me. Especially his hurricane kick.

It doesn't bother me how it goes into mini cut scenes on super moves, but some of the fighters scenes take too long.

Agreed. The way some of the graphics are stylised in the game (notably the focus attacks) the kinda artbrushy effect looks like it's been recycled from Okami. Nice touch if you ask me. But at least I'm glad they didn't go for pure realism. An a game like this you want it to look as fun as it is to play.

[Bleck]

the more I play this game the less I like it compared to Third Strike

it's really easy to just spam crap and unlike third strike there isn't really a clear way to counter that unless you're OMG SO GOOD which I don't really feel like I should need to be to enjoy a game

[anosou]

Actually, Sirlin is pretty much a game master. He's a tournament level player not only at the Street Fighter series as a whole, but also Smash Brothers, Guilty Gear, Virtua Fighter, StarCraft, whatever. So, when he criticizes something for being off, it's not because he's comparing it to one game.

Wasn't really my point though.. :3 but yeah I know he's good and apparently he doesn't like a number of things. I don't agree Somehow this makes my opinion invalid. And even though he's the master of whatever he's still an ass towards anyone who doesn't agree

I STILL feel some of his criticism isn't criticism but personal taste in fighting games.

[DjSammyG]

Totally agree with AnSo here. One of my biggest complaints about his review is that he keeps citing guilty gear as a paragon of fighting game design, and yet guilty gear itself falls victim to many of the criticisms that Sirlin raises.

Guilty gear features 3 gauges, and 2 special gauges, counting the burst gauge. It is probably one of the most complex fighting series ever made.

In addition, responding to his reflex argument, high level play in guilty gear is all about those types of combos. It's not a strategic step in- step out. I feel like he got this totally wrong about SF. At least in mid-level play, there's a marked tradeoff between offence and defense. In guilty gear, many times it's all one or the other. One person may go on the offensive, linking precisely into a dust combo, while another will just block and dodge, waiting for the special meter to fill so that he or she could do a one-hit KO move at the perfect moment.

I dunno, it just seems like this guy and I are playing totally different games.

[EdgeCrusher]

I'm in no way a tourney player, and I love the game. I don't like how he is a dickhead about his opinion though. I mean its fine to have an opinion, but don't come off as a smug asshole about it.

[zircon]

Nice ad hominem! Really compelling

Totally agree with AnSo here. One of my biggest complaints about his review is that he keeps citing guilty gear as a paragon of fighting game design, and yet guilty gear itself falls victim to many of the criticisms that Sirlin raises.

Yet another person misses the point. He's not saying GG is the paragon of fighting game design. He was pointing out that even though it's extremely complex and oriented towards the extremely hardcore, it manages to do roman cancels more elegantly than SF4. He's not saying GG is simply better than SF4, but that even in a VERY complex game (MORE complex than SF4) you can do roman cancels elegantly.

Guilty gear features 3 gauges, and 2 special gauges, counting the burst gauge. It is probably one of the most complex fighting series ever made.

Yes, and he's not saying GG is a better game than SF4 as a result, nor is he criticizing complexity in general. Obviously as an experienced gamer he can handle complexity. He's questioning design decisions that make SF4 a more hardcore-oriented game despite the fact that people routinely call it casual-friendly.

In addition, responding to his reflex argument, high level play in guilty gear is all about those types of combos. It's not a strategic step in- step out. I feel like he got this totally wrong about SF. At least in mid-level play, there's a marked tradeoff between offence and defense. In guilty gear, many times it's all one or the other. One person may go on the offensive, linking precisely into a dust combo, while another will just block and dodge, waiting for the special meter to fill so that he or she could do a one-hit KO move at the perfect moment.

This all may be true, but again it's beside the points that he is making.

I STILL feel some of his criticism isn't criticism but personal taste in fighting games.

I think most of what he has said is objective criticism, not really taste, and he does a very good job defending everything he has said. Remember, he's not saying Street Fighter IV is a bad game. He's not saying other games are BETTER than SFIV. He's talking about very specific features or issues in SFIV and drawing comparisons to other games to support his argument.

[Animae]

PterPrker

Schwaltzvald

Vivi22

tragick

k-wix

DuelloTokai

jaychendy

I will add you on PSN tomorrow.

I've ordered the game and a stick, but it hasn't arrived yet. I'm prepared to get my ass handed to me, as I've played little to none SF before.

[Vivi22]

I will add you on PSN tomorrow.

I've ordered the game and a stick, but it hasn't arrived yet. I'm prepared to get my ass handed to me, as I've played little to none SF before.

Join the club. The only SF I ever played to any real extent before this was EX on the PSX way back when. I did get HD Remix a few weeks back, but I've been pretty busy and didn't play much before SF4 came out. Even now, I've had the time to get my butt kicked in about 7 online matches, win one, and beat arcade mode once as Ryu. It'll be a long time before I'm dealing out any major ass whuppings.

[EdgeCrusher]

zircon, I've noticed you talking about this article and everything a lot. Seriously, you seem so far up sirlin's ass its sad. Not to be dissing on you or anything, but reread some of the stuff you've posted here and on IRC. Might give you a new perspective on things. Seems like all your comments on people's opinions of it are "well, you are missing the point". I don't think thats a strong basis for discussion.

[BardicKnowledge]

All of this debating (which I completely agree with both SIrlin and zircon) aside, the worst part of the game thus far is that the only type of multiplayer lobby is 1v1.

Why can't we have a group of 6 guys throwing down and BSing over the mic like we can in HDRemix? It's that part of the game that I miss -- sitting around the arcade cabinet talking about other people playing while you wait your turn.

[zircon]

zircon, I've noticed you talking about this article and everything a lot. Seriously, you seem so far up sirlin's ass its sad. Not to be dissing on you or anything, but reread some of the stuff you've posted here and on IRC. Might give you a new perspective on things. Seems like all your comments on people's opinions of it are "well, you are missing the point". I don't think thats a strong basis for discussion.

I don't think ad hominems are a good basis for discussion. The reason I've referenced the article several times is because I completely agree with it. As you can see several other SF4 players here agree as well, ie. djp, Bardicknowledge, Liontamer... I think Capcom could fix some of these issues pretty easily, for example the lack of double blinds in online games, the weak netcode, tweaking some of the characters (no Fei Long overhead, no safe rekkas), maybe providing a shortcut to focus cancels, and so forth.

All of this debating (which I completely agree with both SIrlin and zircon) aside, the worst part of the game thus far is that the only type of multiplayer lobby is 1v1.

Nah, the worst part is getting 10 "unable to play. search again?" messages before getting an actual game. Seriously, I'd say connecting works maybe 10% of the time?

[SoloGamer]

I think Capcom could fix some of these issues pretty easily, for example the lack of double blinds in online games, ... maybe providing a shortcut to focus cancels, and so forth.

While the double blind selection was nice, it's not too important. There's no double blind selection when you go play at an arcade, or even in a tournament. So I have to put up with a few more seconds of my opponent hovering over Honda before they quickly move to Akuma at the last second. Big whoop.

And there is a shortcut for focus cancels. It's not on by default, but you can map the focus attack to a single button. Same thing with throws, taunts, and 3P/3K.

Nah, the worst part is getting 10 "unable to play. search again?" messages before getting an actual game. Seriously, I'd say connecting works maybe 10% of the time?

That happens in HDR too. Best way to avoid this is just set request to on and wail on the CPU for a while until someone challenges you. It won't be long before someone shows up, and you won't have to stare at a boring menu while you wait.

[k-wix]

I generally agree with every criticism he has, most of them are fairly minor and easily fixed, and I wonder - now that we are in the age of console game patches and updates how many changes we might see to the system down the road. That being said, I do enjoy the game very much, I think its a fantastic showing and a pretty unique fighting game system. I would love to see a mode that did away with Revenge Ultras and Supers, or possibly just Revenges.

And honestly, i always felt like other fighting games were always more difficult and harder to get into then street fighter in general. A lot of the 3d games had unique movement and unorthodox controls, learning one character took a LONG time, the movelists can be Daunting. (Soul Caliber anyone?) Even Guilty Gear i thought was more complicated, the combo potential was very high and stringing together simple combo's could be difficult to remember.

But SF? Street Fighter is completely different. I can go back to Ryu after 5 years and know every single one of his super moves right off the bat. I know the basics and how the game functions. It may be deeper down inside, and more robust - but on the outside, to the casual gamer, SF4 is really simple to get into, and I think thats why so many people call it casual friendly. All that said though - most of his comments are right on the money.

I haven't played Guilty Gear in at least 6 months, and there's NO way I could play Chipp like I used too, i'd get crushed. Maybe it's just my bad memory >.>

[BardicKnowledge]

While the double blind selection was nice, it's not too important. There's no double blind selection when you go play at an arcade, or even in a tournament. So I have to put up with a few more seconds of my opponent hovering over Honda before they quickly move to Akuma at the last second. Big whoop.

And there is a shortcut for focus cancels. It's not on by default, but you can map the focus attack to a single button. Same thing with throws, taunts, and 3P/3K.

That happens in HDR too. Best way to avoid this is just set request to on and wail on the CPU for a while until someone challenges you. It won't be long before someone shows up, and you won't have to stare at a boring menu while you wait.

First of all, there _is_ double blind selection in tournaments, regardless of whether the game offers it or not. Second, while there's a shortcut button for the focus attack, there exists no shortcut button for the FADC in either direction, which is what Zircon is complaining about. I'd prefer that a quick tap of the FA immediately initiates the forward dash-cancel, with the attack only coming out if you charge it for some amount of time (which could be very small)...and then having the backward FADC remain the current dash-cancel motion.

HDR isn't nearly as bad about disconnects, though I haven't had a lot of problems with that myself.

[DarkeSword]

The only one of Sirlin's points I disagree with is where he talks about how quick recovery from being knocked down should be automatic, making staying down the conscious decision.

[Zeklan]

I like using Ken. There I said it.

I've been using him since before SF2 went TURBO.

I'm trying to branch out though.

Also looking into Sakura, Abel, Rose, and I appear to be the only person even vaguely interested in Viper. (I refuse to acknowledge that C.)

[anosou]

the worst part of the game thus far is that the only type of multiplayer lobby is 1v1.

Why can't we have a group of 6 guys throwing down and BSing over the mic like we can in HDRemix? It's that part of the game that I miss -- sitting around the arcade cabinet talking about other people playing while you wait your turn.

So damn true it hurts sometime.

I think most of what he has said is objective criticism, not really taste, and he does a very good job defending everything he has said. Remember, he's not saying Street Fighter IV is a bad game. He's not saying other games are BETTER than SFIV. He's talking about very specific features or issues in SFIV and drawing comparisons to other games to support his argument.

How can preferring "simpler" operation be objective criticism? I prefer more dexterity based controls, two button inputs and FADC because it makes me practice in single player but that isn't an objective criticism towards games like Evil Zone that has ONE button for attacks?

Let's do some copy+pasting:

"The size of the stages is extremely large relative to the size of the characters. This helps runaway tactics." - how's this objective? Runaway tactics aren't "bad" per say? just another way to play

"99% of the time, I want to get up fast" - HE wants to get up fast. Also, even if the majority wants to, that's not a bad thing but a subjective opinion about a game mechanic. He also says it lessens the importance of knockdowns "lessens" as in compared to other games. This is just tactics-altering, not game-breaking.

"Next is the 2-button throw, a bad idea in fighting games with 2D gameplay." "simpler is still better" "adds coplexity" - Again, I don't see how complexity is a BAD thing. It's just a matter of taste!

His point about kara-throws is still valid though.. However I can't really say anything about this because I'm unsure how it affects balance of the characters who CAN kara-throw.. haven't researched this.. If it doesn't make the characters REALLY unbalanced I don't have anything against it.

re: the dexterity required to link low-shorts I think that's positive since it then takes serious practice and dexterity skill to perform these links into specials. I've yet to see this mechanic make the gameplay "bad" or "unbalanced" in any way. Instead it's one of the best moves and thus alters tactics to rely more on low-shorts. The fact that these are in challenge mode shows that the developers probably think like me and well.. can't say anything more than that I agree with them. The same is through with focus-cancelling.

"One friend of mine already does this combo in real matches after only 2 days of playing, as well as other scarily damaging combos off low short that involve hard links." "It's a question of how far to turn the knob towards 1p activities and away from strategy." - Okay. This just proves that the game is now more aimed towards 1player practice to nail the 1-frame combos. It IS a question of 1p activities vs. strategy but again, I don't think that's a necessarily bad thing, instead it's a personal preference. Also, when playing on a similar level (i.e. everyone knows these combos) it WILL still be as strategic because EVERYONE has these moves and know they can use it, basing their movement around it.

I wholeheartedly agree about button-configs, online char select, unlocking half of the characters and that most magazines said it was "simple and elegant" but I don't agree that any of the points above bring the game down. Just change it from what people might be used too.

[The Derrit]

I like using Ken. There I said it.

I've been using him since before SF2 went TURBO.

I'm trying to branch out though.

Also looking into Sakura, Abel, Rose, and I appear to be the only person even vaguely interested in Viper. (I refuse to acknowledge that C.)

haha not quite. c. viper is S tier in japan, one of the best.

[zircon]

"The size of the stages is extremely large relative to the size of the characters. This helps runaway tactics." - how's this objective? Runaway tactics aren't "bad" per say? just another way to play

How about a fighting game with stages that take 5 minutes to run across? Or ones where you have to hit 8 buttons at a time to play? Those would just be "another way to play" also, but that doesn't mean we can't say they are better or worse.

"99% of the time, I want to get up fast" - HE wants to get up fast. Also, even if the majority wants to, that's not a bad thing but a subjective opinion about a game mechanic. He also says it lessens the importance of knockdowns "lessens" as in compared to other games. This is just tactics-altering, not game-breaking.

When did he say it was game-breaking at all? He just said it makes knockdowns less important, which is true. Also, if the majority of people want to get up quickly from a knockdown, then it makes sense to make the "down" command keep you down longer, not fast-recover. That is what he is trying to say about optimizing for the majority of cases.

His point about kara-throws is still valid though.. However I can't really say anything about this because I'm unsure how it affects balance of the characters who CAN kara-throw.. haven't researched this.. If it doesn't make the characters REALLY unbalanced I don't have anything against it.

You're not reading what he's saying. He's not saying kara throws are unbalanced. Kara throws enable some characters to enlarge their throw range. However, they're tricky to pull off. This is a bug, but Capcom seemingly intended to leave it in. His point is that RATHER than force people to use an arcane technique like a Kara throw to extend their throw range, just extend the character's throw range and remove Kara throws, which aren't even supposed to be a feature to begin with.

re: the dexterity required to link low-shorts I think that's positive since it then takes serious practice and dexterity skill to perform these links into specials. I've yet to see this mechanic make the gameplay "bad" or "unbalanced" in any way. Instead it's one of the best moves and thus alters tactics to rely more on low-shorts. The fact that these are in challenge mode shows that the developers probably think like me and well.. can't say anything more than that I agree with them. The same is through with focus-cancelling.

"One friend of mine already does this combo in real matches after only 2 days of playing, as well as other scarily damaging combos off low short that involve hard links." "It's a question of how far to turn the knob towards 1p activities and away from strategy." - Okay. This just proves that the game is now more aimed towards 1player practice to nail the 1-frame combos. It IS a question of 1p activities vs. strategy but again, I don't think that's a necessarily bad thing, instead it's a personal preference. Also, when playing on a similar level (i.e. everyone knows these combos) it WILL still be as strategic because EVERYONE has these moves and know they can use it, basing their movement around it.

Anso, you are really not understanding his argument at all. For the last time, he's not saying complexity is bad or that it removes strategy. He is an experienced Guilty Gear player and you don't see him badmouthing it. However, his point is that the game is MARKETED and DESIGNED in many ways as a CASUAL FRIENDLY game. When you put in things like two-button throws, Kara throws, complicated roman cancels, and extremely difficult link combos, you are making it harder for CASUAL PLAYERS to become better at the game and compete at a higher level, where everyone already will know how to do all of that stuff. You are forcing people to spend time in 1p training to become better at a 2p game, which is basically like "grinding"

Let's go back to the WoW analogy. WoW is so successful because it (mostly) cut the crap out of MMOs. EverQuest could take you 2,000 hours to get up to the maximum level, where the real fun begins. World of Warcraft cuts that time to 1/5, 1/6 or even lower. Blizzard realized that the meat of the game is in the endgame, where everyone is roughly the same power, and that it would be more fun overall to have everyone be able to get to that level faster. Some hardcore players have complained about WoW's experience curve, but it's still the most successful MMO ever, even among hardcore gamers. Guild Wars took this a step further, removing the grind almost entirely, and it has been very successful.

You might not personally feel this way, but I would imagine that MOST people don't find it terribly exciting to spend hours and hours beating up a dummy just to get the tools to play the game normally, just like most people don't enjoy grinding for thousands of hours in an MMO (where the rewards are still even more tangible than a fighting game). I certainly don't. Crap like making Fei Long's chicken wing command needlessly complex doesn't do anything except force mindless practice. It's not fun and there's no strategy or thinking involved.

[anosou]

How about a fighting game with stages that take 5 minutes to run across? Or ones where you have to hit 8 buttons at a time to play? Those would just be "another way to play" also, but that doesn't mean we can't say they are better or worse.

When did he say it was game-breaking at all? He just said it makes knockdowns less important, which is true. Also, if the majority of people want to get up quickly from a knockdown, then it makes sense to make the "down" command keep you down longer, not fast-recover. That is what he is trying to say about optimizing for the majority of cases.

You're not reading what he's saying. He's not saying kara throws are unbalanced. Kara throws enable some characters to enlarge their throw range. However, they're tricky to pull off. This is a bug, but Capcom seemingly intended to leave it in. His point is that RATHER than force people to use an arcane technique like a Kara throw to extend their throw range, just extend the character's throw range and remove Kara throws, which aren't even supposed to be a feature to begin with.

Anso, you are really not understanding his argument at all. For the last time, he's not saying complexity is bad or that it removes strategy. He is an experienced Guilty Gear player and you don't see him badmouthing it. However, his point is that the game is MARKETED and DESIGNED in many ways as a CASUAL FRIENDLY game. When you put in things like two-button throws, Kara throws, complicated roman cancels, and extremely difficult link combos, you are making it harder for CASUAL PLAYERS to become better at the game and compete at a higher level, where everyone already will know how to do all of that stuff. You are forcing people to spend time in 1p training to become better at a 2p game, which is basically like "grinding"

Let's go back to the WoW analogy. WoW is so successful because it (mostly) cut the crap out of MMOs. EverQuest could take you 2,000 hours to get up to the maximum level, where the real fun begins. World of Warcraft cuts that time to 1/5, 1/6 or even lower. Blizzard realized that the meat of the game is in the endgame, where everyone is roughly the same power, and that it would be more fun overall to have everyone be able to get to that level faster. Some hardcore players have complained about WoW's experience curve, but it's still the most successful MMO ever, even among hardcore gamers. Guild Wars took this a step further, removing the grind almost entirely, and it has been very successful.

You might not personally feel this way, but I would imagine that MOST people don't find it terribly exciting to spend hours and hours beating up a dummy just to get the tools to play the game normally, just like most people don't enjoy grinding for thousands of hours in an MMO (where the rewards are still even more tangible than a fighting game). I certainly don't. Crap like making Fei Long's chicken wing command needlessly complex doesn't do anything except force mindless practice. It's not fun and there's no strategy or thinking involved.

RE: kara-throws, that was me missunderstanding "players" for "characters". They do not unbalance the game, just give another thing to practice at, much like links. Sorry about that..

And yes, I understand he and many others are pissed that these points speak against how it's marketed towards a "casual" audience. I understand, but he makes it sound like the system therefore has "issues" and that it would still have issues if it was marketed as "hardcore". That's also how most people reading the post and agrees with him puts it! Pretty much that it's a bad thing then, objectively speaking.

So basically reading from your last piece of text, what you're saying is that it boils down to what you (and most people) personally and subjectively like about a fighting game or game in general? That acessible = better because it's about having the most fun as possible and that is in high-level play? I still think YOU are missing my point, it's a subjective opinion that these "issues" making the game harder (Sirlin DID say they make it harder.) is a "bad" (or at least non-favourable.. or else he wouldn't have called them issues) thing or in any way hurts the game. My opinion is just as valid (something no one has agree'd on).. That is my point and you've yet to prove me wrong :/

[zircon]

Here's the first part of the argument, laid out simply.

(1) Stuff like kara throws and difficult roman cancels make the game's execution more difficult (pure dexterity & 1p training).

(2) The game has been designed, marketed, and presented with the casual gamer in mind (flashy graphics, Ultras & ultra animations, unlockables).

(3) The design "features" in point 1 contradict the apparent philosophy in point 2.

This much is pure deductive reasoning that can't really be argued with. The additional argument Sirlin makes (and I do too) is;

(1) Certain execution barriers make it significantly harder for many people to get to a competitive level of play.

(2) It is preferable for more people to be at the same level of play.

(3) Therefore, it is preferable to reduce certain execution barriers.

Very straightforward.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

That WoW analogy doesn't work at all. Why? Because of level caps. Once you hit lvl.80, you're capped and can't go any higher. Anything else you achieve is due to pure skill, and let me tell you that in this regard, there are people in PvP in Guild Wars and WoW that WILL ream you. You can't expect everyone to be casual and crappy-go-lucky on an online game. You want casual? You're gonna have to play amongst your casual gamer friends.

I'll keep saying it, and keep in mind that I'm not even using other games in the genre as a reference, and it really WOULD be nice if people would objectively look at games for what THEY are as opposed to what they are COMPARED to other games. He wasn't badmouthing SFIV, but he still used Guilty Gear as a reference, which implies that he thought it did things better. It didn't do anything better. It did things differently.

If you have ANY game experience, ANY at all, and you're interested in a fighter, SFIV is STILL a great way to get into it.

We're gonna have to get the ESRB to start rating games based on the "casualness"(yes I made up a word) so that people will know what they're getting into.

And on another note, Capcom would like to say that they're sorry that your braindead mother who hasn't played a game seriously in 10 years sucks at Street Fighter IV.