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Arek the Absolute

Super Smash Bros Brawl

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i miss mewtwo too man that nair was so much fun, and he had this awesome grace about him. as someone who caught him using an ultraball in pokemon blue, i firmly believe that they did a great job with him in melee. lucario is cool and unique and all, but who the eff is he?

and i lold

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You know, I have always had a bias against King DeDeDe since I've played Kirby Superstar. You have now kindled the fumes of prejudice that I have against DeDeDe. I have seen a tier list saying that Deed was a top-tier character, if I am not mistaken, but... well, maybe he's only good against certain people because I've seen him get whooped so many times it isn't even funny. In fact, some kid tried to use him against my Sonic... I never got hit + I wasn't that good.

Who is Deed good against? Slow characters? Little weak ones that aren't fast? I'll look online to see how and when he wins.

Simply said, practice makes perfect. I forgot Wolf's rank on the tier list, but I liked using him a lot (seems to be good + it actually takes skill to use him). Basically a stronger-yet-slower fox; brings that pain, and his style makes up for his lack of speed.

My theory called "Cancellation": There is this rule about certain characters not being able to beat others (unless somebody sucks). I don't know if I saw an impossible situation in your circumstance (i.e. Fox vs Mewtwo (Melee), which I've heard it's possible to beat Fox with Mewtwo, but with a very hard-to-do method), but for the most part, there are those few who just cannot beat certain characters (even if "just cannot" = 90-99.9% chance).

I found it funny that every time someone uses C . Falcon against Mewtwo (and only if you're good with Mewtwo because being horrible w/ Mewtwo = give up), the result is ROFL. You would think that C. Falcon would dominate b/c of his speed and strength, but he becomes predictable. His cancel isn't that fast (correct me if I am wrong), he has no projectile moves, jumps suck, tends to be open a lot (defense isn't as good as Fox, Sheik, Marth or Falco, the top-tier characters for Melee), and as a result, he ends up being whooped the same way a normal pokemon (we're going back, y'all!) would be challenged and / or canceled out by a psychic.

Quit, spamming, n00b(!): C. Falcon's moves have to be mastered. I know a friend who loves him ("Show your moves" taunting everytime he knocks you away), but he (skill-lessly and unnecessarily) spams his B-moves. Who the hell does that? I know that he can combo well with his B-moves, but his A-moves, like most other characters (or any character, really), gets the job done.

Note to ALL noobs: B moves are specials, whether or not they are killing moves. Even if they are killing moves, they do not get the job done 100% of the time.

Question: I know that the Master Hand is in Brawl, but what about the Crazy Hand? Are there any more new top villians? On a side note, I remember when I first played both hands and couldn't win. Not a problem now, depending on what character I use.

Jam: Yeah, Roy is slower, and I knew off-the-back that his recovery sucked in comparison to Marth. He runs fast, but his moves are more slowly anticipated.

....

i....

what?

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I heard that in Brawl, if you rotate Master Hand through a 4th dimension you get Crazy Hand. I even heard the same is true in reverse. But I'm sure that that's just crazy talk.

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His Final Smash involves stroking opponents in inappopriate ways. It doesn't do physical damage, but the emotional scars never go away. It's also unblockable.

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Brawl is clearly not balanced at all.

Definitely agreed -- at least at the moment, the metagame hasn't progressed far enough with each character. We don't have a Brawl equivalent of how Chudat's Ice Climbers changed the IC game, for instance.

Though I do not see the Melee mechanics slapped onto Brawl being universally accepted everywhere, I think having this option is great. I can play in both ways. I just think it's fun to see Melee mechanics on the new characters.

I'm not opposed to having some fun with this with friends -- in fact, if anyone going to MAGFest is bringing a Wii (Atmuh?), I'd love to see it. It's the idea of changing the standard ruleset to a mod that isn't standard by definition. I love the Item Standard list in Jack Kieser's SWF thread -- but I realize that even if I prefer to play that way, it should be at best an alternate setting, not the standard.

What I DO like is that now all the really really clunky characters have a chance to keep up with lagless characters like Metaknight. Think of it this way. Even with these mechanics, all the auto cancel characters still get to auto cancel all their aerial moves but everyone else still needs to learn to cancel their moves? It's still not even fair but at least it's a step in the right direction for competitive play, because Brawl is seriously not anywhere closed to being balanced. This doesn't make it any less fun for people obviously, but you can't say it's anywhere close to perfect.

As for questioning the usefulness of all this wavedash and L-cancel stuff? Different/less predictable approaches, less camping, more creative combo potential.

What do you think of the project mentioned by SamuraiPanda to create a balance patch for Brawl? Would you prefer that to an all-out physics change?

Edit: In case this comes off the wrong way, I'm a total scrub and am happy to acknowledge it. I'm just trying to pick the brains of those better at the game than I am.

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I think that Brawl characters are more balanced than Melee ones, but there are so many things that is impossible to tell who is better than who.

Anyway, I miss MewTwo, it was a cool character.

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I agree with SamuraiPanda's statement that Brawl is its own game entirely, and doesn't deserve to be compared to Melee.

Even, however, as a stand alone game, Brawl is not acceptably competitive. I agree, JS, with your statement that it doesn't require enough skill to be play well. I never thought I'd be saying this, but apparently, there is such a thing as too noob friendly. (I used to say the opposite in defense of SC II being more noob friendly with everything being automated, claiming that there would only be more room for the pros to excel at micro.) But that's a story for another thread. It's just not rewarding enough to become proficient at Brawl. I worked darn hard to learn to apply AT's in Melee, and it was bloody worth it in the end.

What I hate the most is that this is exactly what Sakurai wanted. He didn't want the game to be competitive. He wanted it to be easy for everyone. -A party game. Something to laugh about. Nothing to be serious about. He did a bloody good job, blast him.

Am I generalizing? Sure. Is there a skill gap in Brawl? Absolutely. It's just not enough.

Why do people still attempt to play Brawl competitively then? Here are my theories:

-They refuse to let Sakurai have the satisfaction that he succeeded. This was my problem before I capitulated.

-They are just too bored with Melee metagame and desperately want something new, not wanting to believe Brawl is as bad as it is.

-They just stopped caring, or, in the case of newbies (respectfully), are ignorant of Brawl's fail.

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Definitely agreed -- at least at the moment, the metagame hasn't progressed far enough with each character. We don't have a Brawl equivalent of how Chudat's Ice Climbers changed the IC game, for instance.

I don't even think it's about the metagame. Right now it's so imbalanced that tournaments are now escalating to just Metaknight vs. Metaknight at the end, because Metaknight currently has no counterpick characters other than another Metaknight. BORING.

I'm not opposed to having some fun with this with friends -- in fact, if anyone going to MAGFest is bringing a Wii (Atmuh?), I'd love to see it. It's the idea of changing the standard ruleset to a mod that isn't standard by definition. I love the Item Standard list in Jack Kieser's SWF thread -- but I realize that even if I prefer to play that way, it should be at best an alternate setting, not the standard.

Yes this is what I'm saying. I like these options as another way. It doesn't have to be a standard or anything. Especially not for those who don't want it.

What do you think of the project mentioned by SamuraiPanda to create a balance patch for Brawl? Would you prefer that to an all-out physics change?

Edit: In case this comes off the wrong way, I'm a total scrub and am happy to acknowledge it. I'm just trying to pick the brains of those better at the game than I am.

I think the project to completely rebalance Brawl is pretty much a fool's errand. It's really unnecessary. I wouldn't protest if there was a lot more balance but really I think they should let it be. The game has a lot of options, with or without hacks, to adjust a very large majority as to how they want to play things. If they do somehow get it going, I will still check it out, but really it's too ambitious and almost a waste of time.

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hey guys! remember me! the scrubby dedede that got all upset that IC's ruined him

anyway

i've gotten over it since, obviously. simply put, i had no experience in the matchup and i guess i also had some preconceived notions of honor, whatever. it was my first tourney and i made some dumb decisions, got all upset and got better after directly apologizing to the IC's player i was such a jerk to.

in any case, i'm no longer going to standard tourneys. they're just not my thing. instead, a friend and i are running small, extremely centralized tournaments that attempt to bridge the gap between casual and competitive. there's always been a group of about 15 - 20 smash players in our area of varying skill levels, all looking for competition but for some reason or another turned off by the tourney scene.

we don't go by standard rules and have an extremely low entry fee (five dollars for our most recent ones, compared to the $30 for each tourney around here) and bizarre stipulations (next month we're considering a tourney wherein everyone submits one created stage, we compile them all and random all matches). this month's tourney involves a team setup wherein three people are grouped at random, matches are conducted in a "round" format with special advantages called "gimmes"...things like forcing everyone to go random, switching out characters, players, etc. these formats change every month, with a standard HUGE tourney every six months approaches the competition more traditionally.

pro players can come if they play by our rules, the biggest of which being no infinites. right now we're holding off on inviting some of the better players in our area simply so we can cultivate this tiny community of equally skilled players...eventually it'll be more open and hopefully we can expand.

my point isn't to advertise these tourneys, per se. i also don't mean to say that the entire smash community should focus on making the tourneys more like this, because they shouldn't. there's a way brawl can be fun and inclusive while still being viable in a competitive atmosphere...it definitely won't work for everyone, but it's certainly working for us. there's a big turnout each tourney and it feels more like a big get-together than an actual balls-out tournament. money matches are a big deal, as is betting on matches.

i should say though, i wasn't around for the melee scene so i'm not entirely sure how impossibly fantastic it was.

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I'd have to agree with Dunther, at least as far as casual play is concerned. Your average Joe isn't going to be arsed to learn how to chain-grab with Dedede or Up-Tilt spam with Snake. B-Spamming Metaknights are common, but amongst casuals, it can be dealt with, either with items (gasp!) or for them to just make a mistake.

I know this viewpoint won't win me any friends here in the Smash thread, but frankly, I find Brawl to be a more fun game than Melee ever was. You'll all probably think I'm an idiot for enjoying the game as a spastic, item-filled chaos-fest, but hey, it's how I like the game.

Personally, I think the argument that places blame on Sakurai for expecting people to play the game by his design philosophies are ludicrous. How many linear games have everyone in here played? Those are far worse about "played the way the designer wants you to" than Brawl could ever hope to be, given the level of customization you have. Sakurai wants his game to be played within a certain frame of mind, but not so much that he shackles you to a single paradigm. Yeah, I can understand that you're all pretty miffed about a developer turning his back on you, but his design philosophies cater to the many rather than the few. It's pretty common in the industry.

Sorry if I've pissed anyone off, but I just had to speak up on this. Keep in mind that even if Sakurai's design philosophies don't agree with your own, they're still valid and in fact, reasonable.

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i think what's so bizarre is that most of our "group" grew up on the N64 smash and were all extremely good at it. when melee came out we played it for hours on end but never really reached that top shelf, which is probably why we're so happy with brawl. the short answer is that we never got spoiled. i'd contend (in an extremely offensive and gross generalization) that brawl's major supporters are people just like us.

that's not to say that we're huge sakurai fanboys; i don't think i know a person on this earth that actually enjoys the inclusion of tripping. but the flexibility of these small locally-grown tourneys really lends itself well to the imbalance of brawl. we can just decide to ban metaknight on a whim and know people would still come, because they're not doing so for the money--they're doing it for the friendly atmosphere and the fun of it.

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:-( I will make it clear that I am joking when I make a joke, even if it's not funny.

*deep, heavy exhale*

:sad: I'm really not trying to flame here: if something I say sounds nuts, it's because I am joking.

Edit: Salluz, I'm going to talk to you like a friend and give you some honest advice: for your own sake, don't post as if you are a veteran or expert at something.

:sad: I wasn't really "posting for n00bs"; I was... joking. Specifically, I was laughing about how my friend overuses the B moves.

Questions like "what's so great about Dedede" (answered by Derrit) and "Is Crazy Hand in Brawl" (the answer is yes; you'll find out later that he is being controlled by an even more powerful being) are fine, and people will gladly give you what you need. But if you try to give tips to the "n00bs," you just sound arrogant and end up making a fool of yourself, because for the most part your advice is redundant at best and plain wrong at worst. As the cliche goes, if people want your advice, they will ask for it.
:| Show me the redundancy.
Dedede is good against a ton of people. Your experience =/= enough to say he is bad. when he is actually quite good
That's why I asked.

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Just wanted to thank Jam and GT for being awesome. When I get my copy of Brawl back (the fact that I've loaned it out speaks volumes about the differences between it and Melee btw), I'd love to play sometime.

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Seeing how melee was out for like 7 years before brawl came out, I don't think it's gonna happen, but I sure hope Nintendo does something to kinda make up for the big face slap they did to competitive smashers with brawl. Hell, I'd be satisfied with "Here's melee, but with brawl characters added, sorry about that."(or even release a "patch" game (like they have melee version 0, 1, and 2) or downloadable stuff when they figure out a solution to the storage problem - save to SD card maybe?) As far as gameplay though, I think:

Tripping - OUT (obviously)

Air Taunting - IN (you know you want it)

L-Cancel - IN (hell, they knew it was in SSB64 and they kept it in melee)

Wavedash - IN (it's likely they knew about it in melee)

Footstool - IN

Doing something after an airdodge, a la brawl (but not another air dodge) - IN

Choose a direction to air dodge - IN

Melee physics and speed - IN

Online mode - IN (though seriously, while the lag is terrible most times, at least we get to play people not in our living room)

HAL designing the next smash - IN (though I don't know how plausible this would be - didn't they disband or move on to something else?)

The fact that there are people hacking the game to make it more like melee (no tripping, l-cancel, wavedash, etc...) should be a GIANT wakeup call to nintendo that a lot of people don't like it the way it is and are quite upset about it (enough to get people to take action). It kinda feels like the transition from Zelda I to Zelda II - they changed it back to Zelda I style for Zelda III (a link to the past). I hope they go back to melee-style for the next one. Also, the whole idea about taking the shitton of time to create multiple patches to balance the game should also be a wakeup call that things did not go right with the balance part of the game.

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Air taunting a "Show me your moves" followed by a knee would be so sweet.

Even as a casual? This. Just this.

Though I do feel the need to remark to Sengin that the Melee/Brawl shift is quite a bit different than Zelda 1 to Zelda 2. It was pretty much unanimous among everyone that Zelda 2 was a step backward for the Zelda series. Brawl, on the other hand, has a much more divided fanbase. Competitive and tournament players have their gripes with it, while people who tend to play it casually prefer it over Melee. Considering Nintendo's market lies heavily with casual players and making an accessible experience, I don't foresee much getting changed. In fact, the people hacking the game are so far in the minority that realistically Nintendo won't really care, especially considering they bought a copy of the game to begin with.

Sure, Brawl has plenty of balance issues, but so did Melee. In fact, Melee was rife with balance issues itself. Though I understand that the strategies of tourney Melee are still somewhat in flux even after seven years plus, the tiering is still pretty rigid. While you *can* beat Foxes and Falcos with lower tier characters with enough skill, assuming both players are equals, the odds skew very heavily toward the Fox or Falco player.

Yes, this speaks of Nintendo not testing their games enough. I too would've liked to see a more perfectly balanced game, but such a thing is genuinely impossible in a console title. I guess Nintendo figured that maximum balancing would take a very long time and would be extremely arduous and instead decided to make Brawl reasonably balanced as far as casual play is concerned and make the whole thing functional. Given how much the Smash community experiments with the game, for Nintendo to make it perfect, Brawl would be in testing and development for another year, at least.

A cop-out way of testing? Maybe. But at least, online lag excluded, the game runs, and runs well.

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Sorry, I just stumbled across this thread... do you guys play online or something? cause i just got a wii with brawl and would love to play =)

im a fan of 1v1 on non-eventful stages without items.. (i love animal crossing stage its so cute! lol)

and i love peach, lucas, and jiggz

and i dont know my friend code yet, but if you guys play online i'll find it out, if not do you guys meet up or something? O-o" sorry again for silly questions

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