Super Smash Bros Brawl

[Jarvi]

Yeah, that's how I play. I have no defensive game, I just get in there and thrash away. I figure sooner or later I'll hit something.

I used to play defensivly with lots of running... but then G-T yelled at me

[Jam Stunna]

I used to play defensivly with lots of running... but then G-T yelled at me

That is how you win at Brawl. Except replace running with shield-camping.

[cobaltstarfire]

Suddenly I feel the urge to post this again: (image)

Hey, if you're going to post it again atleast upload it onto your own file thingummy.

[friendlyHunter]

Mmmm... thingummy *drools*

I was going to just quote it, but... you know how much of a hassle it is to quote two different posts on these boards! I've gotta open the thread in another tab and everything - it's so much easier to just hit "Copy Image Location" and be done with it...

[Edit]

My post there had nothing to do about Brawl... erm.....

I once hit an opponent with Dedede's mechanical hammer. KO'd him it did (I think). True story.

[Global-Trance]

That is how you win at Brawl. Except replace running with shield-camping.

Jarvi running was only exacerbated with the use of only one move. Oy.

[Eten]

That is how you win at Brawl. Except replace running with shield-camping.

I disagree. There are still shield pokes, shield pressure, spacing attacks on shields, and grabbing people who shield. As fast as shields can go up and down in this game, playing solely defensively either by running away or by shield camping doesn't mean you will win.

Here in this video

You can see here the switch-off between shielding, sometimes it's useful and opens up options for punishment, and other times it doesn't. In fact, you can cover 3 instances of shield use in the first 10 seconds, yet Diddy is the one who gets worked while the first thing he attempts is shield camping and using options out of shield. Arguably, Diddy makes better use of his shield through the whole match than Luigi does, and occasionally punishes luigi with different things out of shield, yet luigi wins. It goes to show that brawl is too complex to simply let shield-camping and defensive play be enough to win.

Also, I like plugging in good Luigi's whenever I can.

[Jam Stunna]

That Diddy Kong is actually making terrible use of his shield. Watch this match instead:

Notice how almost every "combo" (I use the term loosely) that Vidjo performs begins with a shield. Azen starts to do the same thing towards then end. The shield is the best way to start attacks in Brawl.

[Hale-Bopp]

I never won being a shield camp whore. I know, I've tried.

[Jam Stunna]

I never won being a shield camp whore. I know, I've tried.

I can't do it either, it's totally contrary to my play style and what I even consider fun. But if you want to win, it's the way to go.

[Drack]

Projectile + shield camping Dedede is a beast.

But you need more than just that.

[Garde]

Well, I'll agree that most of the Zelda players I've fought haven't impressed me, but I haven't seen any good vids even on the Zelda boards at smashboards yet.

She seems pretty limited to me, imho. She's obviously not in the gutter like the last game, but I don't think she's good, either. I haven't had any trouble getting around her smash attacks, and I hit her out of them very frequently (before her uncharged smashes come out) with characters like Link, ZSS, and Lucario.

As for shield camping... It's effective against most characters, but not against others. Notice that Azen was playing Ike? Ike has pretty much the slowest moveset in the game. Game & Watch can approach most characters incredibly safely (even shielding opponents) with his b-air because it has sick range, priority, multihit, AND it autocancels. He also has the most spammable jab A in the game, making it impossible to shield grab him, or do anything after he lands from a b-air (if you weren't hit out of your shield by it, as it rapes shields pretty badly). Shield camping is effective against characters with single hit attack approaches that have lag afterwards where they can be punished.

Shield camping ZSS is usually ineffective since her dash attack has an active attack hitbox until the end of the move, and her up-tilt comes out at frame 2, and her jab is active on frame 1, so she has 2 options if you dash attack with her properly to keep people from shield grabbing you. Her jab A is admittedly pretty poor, but if used properly (by changing the amount of time you delay between her jabs), it actually becomes a useful tool to hit people out of attempted shield grabs or move into a safer move by letting the jab progression cancel, or even moving out of range.

[Zombie]

Quick question - anybody here know how many stickers, trophies, and songs there are total? I have yet to collect them all (I did complete the 500 trophy challenge today, though).

[Tables]

Quick question - anybody here know how many stickers, trophies, and songs there are total? I have yet to collect them all (I did complete the 500 trophy challenge today, though).

700 Stickers

544 Trophies

258 CDs.

Horray for SmashWiki

[Jaybell]

So okay I think I'm going to try my hand at brawling people on the internet here who I don't know. It'll be an adventure!

[Gorgonian14]

Serious question here, this one is really irritating me. My understanding is that there is a way to filter out some stages from being picked when you choose "Random" from the stage selection screen. Also, I understand you have to unlock this ability. I believe the requirements are:

[X] All stages unlocked

[X] 200 KOs in VS mode

They are Xd because I have done both of them (I have like 2000+ KOs, so that isn't the issue, and I have 40 stages unlocked, which I believe is all of them?).

Now, how do I filter? I can't find anything that allows me to do that and I was never notified that I had the ability. Or do I still need to unlock this somehow? Missed a requirement? Frantic, persistent googling has been no help.

[atmuh]

you dont have them all then

way to suck

[Aninymouse]

you get a notification saying "congrats you have all 41 stages!"

you can check you KO count in Records.

it is accessed from the "more/extra rules" submenu.

Good luck.

[Gorgonian14]

There are 41? Everything I've seen says 40. What is probably the 41st stage I'm missing?

EDIT I think I found it. I don't think I have the Mario Bros. stage. Thanks Aninymouse.

EDIT Again, yep that did it. Thanks again. I counted 40 stages I had unlocked and all the guides say there are 40 stages (stinking liars). Thought I had them all.

[Zombie]

Which stages do you have?

I was missing 75m for a few days after I thought I had unlocked them all. Then I unlocked it.

[Eten]

That Diddy Kong is actually making terrible use of his shield. Watch this match instead:

Notice how almost every "combo" (I use the term loosely) that Vidjo performs begins with a shield. Azen starts to do the same thing towards then end. The shield is the best way to start attacks in Brawl.

Again, I disagree. I think the difference between the two videos isn't how well the one using a more shield based strategy(there is very little difference between a meta-knight fair out of shield and a diddy kong bair out of shield), but how the other character, which is the winner in both cases, actually, is able to reliably space attacks on the shield-camper. Notice how when Azen starts improving on the second half to win more, he doesn't actually use all that much more shield-camping, but instead better spacing/pressure on the shield. Mind you, I don't mean old-school shield pressure aka melee shield stun to prevent out of shield retaliation, exactly, because shield stun is so much smaller now, I mean "weakening the shield safely with spacing until a possible shield poke".

Shield camping is arguably a very easy thing to do, and it's far from worthless, but it can't win you games against pros. Azen, you know!

[Garde]

It really depends on the character for the shield camping. Trying to shield against G&W or Wolf is asking for a lot of trouble, with their multi hit, auto canceling, shield raping aerials.

I've found that it isn't too effective against people when I play. I used to shield camp a lot, but as my play style has developed, I've been forced to learn other ways at winning, because my opponents have gotten smarter and found ways to make shield camping disadvantageous. Characters like Wolf and G&W (or ANYONE with autocanceling aerials and some decent ground options) can make shield camping impossible for their opponent. Wolf and G&W can do this particularly well because of their good reach, good priority, multi hit, auto canceling aerial moves that lead into very safe shield pressure on the ground with 100% chance of shield poking.

Other characters don't have all the tools required to thwart shield camping as easily, but it is quite possible provided the players play smart (some characters might not have the ability to overcome it, period, and then you resort to other tactics to prevent them from shield camping).

The game pretty much boils down to 3 main elements that win you matches.

Spacing is one of the most important elements in this game, and whoever spaces better often wins when there is no innate advantage in the character matchup (some characters just do really well against others based on character and move properties).

Mind games are probably the second most important element in the competitive scene. If you can't space properly, it means you won't be able to use mind games very effectively. However, once you get a hang of spacing (not just your own character, but your opponent's as well), you can begin implementing mind games. Look at how your opponent plays and learn how they react to you doing specific things, then use that to your advantage and bait them into reacting when you haven't done anything. When opponents have around equal skill in spacing (and an even character matchup) it often boils down to whoever was able to read the other better.

The final element to competitive play comes down to stage control. This is one of the most important elements to winning because if you control the stage, you control your opponent. In a way, this is a highly specific form of mind game, as you limit your opponent's options. One of the many reasons why competitive people do not like FFAs (whether they know it or not) is because stage control cannot occur when it's so chaotic. The space a character occupies, he often controls, and the main objective of the game is to control your opponent's space and force him into situations that are unfavorable for him. Stage control doesn't necessarily mean controlling the entire stage, but it's forcing your opponent to reposition himself that is important. It's the easiest to do with projectiles, but characters without them often can, as well (it really depends, character matchups really can make this impossible).

Shield camping is only a tactic that allows characters to play defensively against opponents without projectiles. And it's sort of a form of stage control in those specific matchups, otherwise it's basically like shield grabbing in melee. People will adapt and find ways around it, I know I have and my friends have.

EDIT: To add onto the shield grabbing comparison. When the meta game was developing for Melee, shield grabbing was a very powerful tool. It was MUCH more effective than it was in SSB64, and I remember playing against many opponents that had never, ever seen the tactic before. Because of their inexperience, I would beat them without losing any stock, and rarely go above 100% damage out of 5 stock matches. Was shield grabbing unbeatable? No. Shield camping is essentially what shield grabbing was to Melee. It's just a tool in each characters' arsenal (just like shield grabbing, WDing, and LCing), some have more use for it than others, some might find it entirely useless.

The people I beat miserably because I was just shield grabbing them might've thought it was cheap, or unbeatable, or that it gave me an unfair advantage. The truth is that they couldn't open their eyes to look for a way around it. They were so convinced that how they were playing was "right" and that I had found some exploit in the game that was insurmountable. I told them how to overcome it, and they were able to avoid getting shield grabbed, but they never really opened their eyes to find creative ways to bait me into shield grabbing, so I would always beat them (about just as bad as before, sometimes they'd take a stock off of me). When you look at tournament matches, yes shield grabbing was used in Melee, a lot, but it was merely one of MANY tools that the skilled players used in order to win matches. Good players will use it, but it won't win the match for them in competitive games.

Shield camping will be no different as it is essentially the same, except you can perform most moves instead of just grab.

[Jam Stunna]

I totally agree with Garde. But when I use the term "shield-camping", I don't mean staying in one place and waiting for your opponent to rush you. What I mean is the use of your shield to start attacks/combos. I played Cort on Friday, and he uses Snake (he went on to win a tournament the next day where he beat Mew2King in the finals). He does this thing where he just walks around, perfect shields every attack and then punishes you.

No, you can't stand still and expect to win. No, you can't shield all the time and expect to win. What I'm trying to say is that a perfectly placed shield is far better than a perfectly placed attack, due to the lack of shield-stun and the lack of l-canceling. If you check the results of that tournament, the top five finishers mained characters that either attack well out of their shields (Snake, DDD), rape shields (G&W, Metaknight) or camp extremely well (Falco, ROB). In any case, the game revolves around your shield: how well you can use it, or how well you can destroy it.

[Garde]

I am quite aware that shield camping isn't just sitting in one spot shielding (just like shield grabbing, you use it the moment you have to otherwise opponents will get smart and react to your anticipated shielding). But I agree that the game is much more focused on defense than the previous two iterations. They made perfect shielding far easier, and the lack of LCing makes it very difficult for characters without auto canceling moves or quick/ranged attacks to beat shield campers.

What they did to perfect shielding has made sidestep dodging pretty useless, though. Especially now that perfect shields last against multi hit moves, there's pretty much no point to sidestep dodge...

I think there's more to the game than just how well people do from their shield or how well they can destroy it. When I play against people who destroy shields, I don't shield. I use spacing like crazy and some people have even said "Why do you play like such a bitch?" to me after matches where they could not get in on me. Shield camping is a valid tactic, but it has varying degrees of effectiveness spread across the entire cast. Against those that it is very effective, you'll see people trying extremely hard to get around it. Against those that it isn't effective, you won't see it as much.

Shielding is one big feature of the game, that cannot be ignored. It's always been an important part of the game, whether it's a good idea to shield or not. As the Smash series has progressed, shielding has gradually become more powerful, especially due to less shield stun and more options have become valid as the series has progressed.

In my humble opinion, I think it will find itself in the same position that shield grabbing found itself in Melee (important as a tool, but not what the game revolves around). The game is still quite young and we have yet to discover everything about the game's engine, or even all the little nuances for each character.

[Jam Stunna]

I agree with you, Garde.

Anyone want to play? I need to work on my Ike. FC= 3179-5865-1416.

[Zombie]

What they did to perfect shielding has made sidestep dodging pretty useless, though. Especially now that perfect shields last against multi hit moves, there's pretty much no point to sidestep dodge...

Not sure if I agree with this. Usually I start off by shielding attacks, then quickly sidestep around them and get them from their back. Plus, sometimes they are expecting shielding, so dodging can be used to keep you unpredictable. Maybe I am just a noob...?