Secret Agent Man Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Hopefully the removal of crits doesn't remove the spy's backstabby awesome. Otherwise... Also, part of the game, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brushfire Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I really don't mind crits. Sometimes they can suck cause you get one shotted by a scout, but it keeps the games fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensai Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 a) I really hate not being able to get on and play a few minutes regardless of what time it is. People really need to learn the new server and start flocking to it like they used to. I know that all this is long gone and past, but I think it was kinda pointless to reset the stats. I understand that people were really far ahead of others in terms of points, but who the hell cared? Colin is the only person I've seen who really cared about points... And, since apparently a lot of people did care (enough people to reset the stats), why didn't you change the way the points were awarded?! It's just going to happen again and again... [Edit:] Ack! Sorry, this post was devoid of anything positive or at least not-bitchy. Um...sunshine and lollipops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 My thoughts on crits should be well known by now due to the huge amounts of whining I do. It's a fact that as you become more skilled you'll be somewhat able to calculate (subconciously most likely) how much damage you've done and how much more it will take to finish off the enemy, and base your movements on that. Crits mess that up. For example, when I play scout and I know it will take one point blank shot to take down the pyro I'm facing, I have full health, and I know that there's a medkit right around the corner, I'll jump in and finish him off. Of course, then his flamethrower crits, and kills me before I can even squeeze off a shot. Same when I know that the heavy right around the corner doesnt have enough health to take me down before I do him in with circlestrafing because he's not spun up and all that, so I jump out, get off two shots before his gun spins up and he instakills me with a crit. It's mostly the randomness of getting punished by an enemy crit for making an otherwise good analysis of the situation which would win you the battle. You can argue that this goes both ways but when I kill an opponent with a crit I really don't feel as much satisfaction, because I know it was just dumb luck rather than skill that killed the guy. So yes, I'm all for at least a few 'critless' days in a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkeSword Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Yes, that's all well and good, but here's the thing: crits force you to take into account that there is a risk in everything you attempt. TF2 isn't chess. You can't sit there and depend on your analysis of the situation every time. Sometimes you just have to say "screw it" and take the risk. Sometimes you die. I'm against no-crit days. My only complaint is our ridiculously long respawn times. We should really change it to 10-15 seconds max. I know the argument against it: "If you don't like long respawn times, don't die. :P" Sorry, but that's a stupid argument, because I don't think I've ever played a round of TF2 where nobody died. You hear it all the time from people on voice-chat, complaining about the long respawn. It's really annoying having to wait 20+ seconds to get back into the action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atmuh Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Yes, that's all well and good, but here's the thing: crits force you to take into account that there is a risk in everything you attempt. TF2 isn't chess. You can't sit there and depend on your analysis of the situation every time. Sometimes you just have to say "screw it" and take the risk. Sometimes you die. I'm against no-crit days. crits or no crits there are always risks for rushing in as a pyro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Don't remove crits. The game was balanced to factor in crits; remove that and you remove some of the balance that Valve intended, and yes, the game is EXTREMELY balanced compared to almost anything else out there. Crits are excellent for a server like this because they bridge the skill gap and help prevent stalemates. A single crit rocket or crit sticky can change the tide of a battle, and that is really important to keeping the game from being a turtlefest. The least fun thing about any online game is when many skilled players are involved in the game and you or your team is just not as skilled. eg. "Stacked teams." It's simply not fun when people are much better than you are; you die a lot and really don't have a good time. IMO, the most fun games are when teams are even, but that doesn't always happen. Crits allow a player who might not be the greatest soldier or demoman to manage to kill someone like Vahn or Sensai when, under normal circumstances, that should happen 0% of the time. It just so happens that our server is regularly populated by a handful of amazing players that are quite dominant, but we also have a ton of fairly unskilled players. Take out crits and the playing field becomes even more uneven. Darkesword is right. This isn't chess. Take out crits and you might as well make all guns do a set amount of damage instead of the range they do now. Is THAT unfair, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secret Agent Man Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I'd like crits to stay in the game, really. What I believe is already what has been said. As for what DarkeSword brought up about respawning, I sympathize. It's irritating to sit out for ~20 seconds at a time (which is why it boggles the mind as to why people are willing to sit out whole rounds for arena... Unless brushfire commentary is present). It does balance the offense/defense though: Defense naturally takes longer to respawn because they're closer to the final point/whatever to be defended. If you make the respawn time too short for either side you then disrupt the game's balance by flooding the playing field with fresh entities too often. That said, a slight lowering of offense/defense respawns couldn't hurt. Do it with caution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrobble Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 i really think crits are fine. It sucks to be on the wrong end of one, but it's just as awesome to be on the right end. I wouldn't be totally opposed to turning them off for a day during the week or something. While we're at it, it might be fun to have a day to just goof around, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahamut Posted September 19, 2008 Author Share Posted September 19, 2008 I'll alter respawn times for defense a little later today, now that there is no more custom server tabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atmuh Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 While we're at it, it might be fun to have a day to just goof around, too. i am fully in favor of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I'll alter respawn times for defense a little later today, now that there is no more custom server tabs. thank god thank god Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Effef Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Don't remove crits. The game was balanced to factor in crits; remove that and you remove some of the balance that Valve intended, and yes, the game is EXTREMELY balanced compared to almost anything else out there. Crits are excellent for a server like this because they bridge the skill gap and help prevent stalemates. A single crit rocket or crit sticky can change the tide of a battle, and that is really important to keeping the game from being a turtlefest.The least fun thing about any online game is when many skilled players are involved in the game and you or your team is just not as skilled. eg. "Stacked teams." It's simply not fun when people are much better than you are; you die a lot and really don't have a good time. IMO, the most fun games are when teams are even, but that doesn't always happen. Crits allow a player who might not be the greatest soldier or demoman to manage to kill someone like Vahn or Sensai when, under normal circumstances, that should happen 0% of the time. It just so happens that our server is regularly populated by a handful of amazing players that are quite dominant, but we also have a ton of fairly unskilled players. Take out crits and the playing field becomes even more uneven. Couldn't have said it better myself. EDIT: Also this. There is a downside to removing crits though - you change the balance of the game, especially making the medic-heavy combo very powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeCrusher Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Crits make taking out a sentry fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atmuh Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Crits make taking out a sentry fun! crits have no affect on buildings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleazyC Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I agree with much that zircon said, mainly that crits should stay on the server. I would love to play on a serve without crits but I guess for me the removal of crits should only be for serious play (i.e. leagues or tourneys) as it is just one more factor that removes chance from the game and pinpoints it down more so on individual skill leve. Crits are a random chance, they have nothing to do with skill so if the server were to move away from a more pub-environment to say a private-community based server (where a lot of "pro" players scrim or play on) then yes I would probably advocate the removal of crits. As it stands now I think crits on the server are fine and as zircon said, can really even out some stacked teams or turn the tide of a battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerlord Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Removing crits doesn't mess up Soldiers. There are plenty of no crit servers that I play and they're all perfectly fine; all the classes act like they're supposed to and you never feel completely robbed of a good kill.Also, in competitive play, there are no crits. There are usually 2 soldiers per team. If you're only keeping crits in to 'save' soldiers, that's silly. If you're keeping them in to make the game less predictable, that's fine...you just have to keep in mind that people will complain about them, myself included. There's not much point in playing Soldier instead of Heavy if crits are off because Heavies then do more damage than Soldiers in the same amount of time... the only purpose a soldier has then is distance damage... and Snipers beat the living shit out of them for that. Blah blah blah. Crits are a random chance, blah blah blah. Except that they better you're doing, the higher percent chance that you get crits. I'm pretty sure Valve even says this in the developer commentary (choose Developer Commentary from the TF2 main menu; they talk a lot about how the game is designed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleazyC Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Except that they better you're doing, the higher percent chance that you get crits. I'm pretty sure Valve even says this in the developer commentary (choose Developer Commentary from the TF2 main menu; they talk a lot about how the game is designed). Yea, I read that, but you still have chance in the game that you will get a crit or not. If you wanted to boil the game down to pure skill crits are an unwanted factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeCrusher Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 crits have no affect on buildings They affect the engie hitting the sentry with a wrench though, making it easier to take it out. HA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Yea, I read that, but you still have chance in the game that you will get a crit or not. If you wanted to boil the game down to pure skill crits are an unwanted factor. Not really. I agree with the concept of crits, but the way that system is implemented (i.e. doing more damage and living longer gets you more crits), it really does tend to simply aid the more skillful players. Unfortunately, Bahamut doesn't just kill you a lot because he gets a lot of crits - he gets a lot of crits because he kills you a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeCrusher Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 I see a lot of people bitch about "Damn critted again" or "I keep dying by crits". I get killed by a crit maybe once or twice a full map. I don't see how people are getting hit that much, unless they are just overreacting to getting shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atmuh Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 I see a lot of people bitch about "Damn critted again" or "I keep dying by crits". I get killed by a crit maybe once or twice a full map. I don't see how people are getting hit that much, unless they are just overreacting to getting shot. youre just too dumb to know if you got hit by a crit or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar of Justice Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Keep crits. Valve put it in, I want the Team Fortress 2 experience as defined by Valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cottus and Gyes Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Crits > Me *shakes fist at scouts*. Too bad I like to say hello to people with my machette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 I see a lot of people bitch about "Damn critted again" or "I keep dying by crits". I get killed by a crit maybe once or twice a full map. I don't see how people are getting hit that much, unless they are just overreacting to getting shot. Maybe you die before people have a chance to crit. Easily 50% of the times I die it's because the enemy got a crit. Also, I whine about crits when theyre ONE of the factors that made me die, i.e. a scout crit scatterguns me and then finishes me off with a normal shot. It's just as annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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