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What makes old-school 2D RPGs like FFVI stand out as great?


The Legendary Zoltan
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Villains should be characters the player should be able to relate to.... and some of the best villains can be those you've come to know so well as a protagonist/even a common good guy. That way, you can sympathize with their cause but equally justify their defeat. It might even lead to catharsis in the player: a purely evil dragon-enemy-boss is ...... just evil, but when the villain is deep, has both good and bad traits, etc., it becomes more epic of a battle against him, because of his behavior or something.

I don't know why but I always tried to connect and sympathize with the villains of RPGs, almost more so than with the protagonists.

Somewhat tangential example: FFIV had an interesting idea there with the whole disappearing Cain thing. Made that one battle really ... controversial but also interesting/exciting.

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I know your story is pretty much hashed out, and you were looking for advice on some of the other things in game-making, so I will only say something small about that. All events that happen to your characters, should do one of two things. 1) The event must develop the characters and their personalities/relationships. 2) The event must develop the plot/story. While different games have different balances of this, a truly well made rpg will do those two things simultaneously a lot of the time.

Anyway, as far as gameplay and stuff goes... This is one of the harder things to do with tools such as rpg maker, but the player needs a variety of things to do in the game. And by variety of things, I mean minigames that play a role in the actual game, and some kind of optional goal which is fairly difficult to reach. Let me try to think of an example of this... ... ... Don't know if anyone has played Mystical Ninja starring Goemon on the N64, but there were a LOT of good minigames in there that really spiced things up. In fact, I wish I had that game right now... I know that game is more of a platformer/action game than an rpg, but it seems like a prime example of how to do good minigames.

The next thing is the battle system. It is very difficult not to do one or both of two bad things in an rpg. 1) the battle system is too dull and repetitive, so you begin to hate battles, and fall asleep during them. 2) the battle system is to attention intensive, so you begin to hate battles during times when you may need to grind out some xp to make a boss easier/make some money/make an enemy drop a particular item, etc. A good compromise would perhaps be an option which will basically take things from automatic to manual, the compromise being that you can do a lot more damage/do a lot better on manual than you can on auto. If you did something like this, I would make sure that boss battles would be near impossible on auto mode.

In addition to the battle system/core gameplay, it is good to have a trick up your sleeve to make your game more original, but the new trick needs to be very deep, and almost be a game in and of itself (ie: the junction system in ff8. Something you can really work on to strategize for specific battles, or for an overall battle efficiency.) If your trick is not as awesome as that, or is a little bit shallow and can be mastered fairly quickly, you'll need more than one trick. Maybe introduce different things as the game progresses, and then increase the difficulty of the battles accordingly.

I hope this helps you out.

I think that is about it for me. I have put a lot of thought into game creation lately because I am currently working on (translation: usually put off and hardly ever work on) a game at the moment. The type of game I'd like to create is more of an action/adventure style rpg kind of like Secret of Mana. I was gonna use either Game Maker, or Torque Game Builder for the engine. Torque is more powerful, but is much harder to use... and more expensive than game maker.

Edit: wow this post wasn't intended to be so long.

Edit 2: And one last thing about the graphics. If possible (can't remember if rpg maker supports this or not), we are in an HD age, and it is always fun to have things like high def sprites and high frame rates. Not sure if that kind of thing is appropriate considering your production team (ie you) and your time/resources/ability to do that kind of thing may not allow that kind of thing. And most importantly, in a home rpg like this one, graphics are SECONDARY to good gameplay and story. Make sure those two things are solid before you spend a lot of time hashing out graphics.

Also, the music is really important when trying to portray a certain feeling in certain scenes. That is, of course, granted. One thing I think is a must for get-in-a-fight-and-enter-battle-mode rpg's is to have battle music that changes. I can't even tell you how much I hate having to listen to the same battle theme OVER and OVER again for so many hours. So here are my recommendations: 1) have a system in the game in which a user can choose from different tracks in a menu of some kind. (this does not include having an mp3 or whatever that the user can switch and rename) 2) Change the battle music as the player progresses, so that when certain events in battle happen, or as certain stages in plot are passed, the music in battle will change. I HATE the battle music for ff10 simply from having heard it too often. You shouldn't have to mute the game and turn on a different sound track in order to enjoy it after the current music grows dull.

Anyway, this is probably more than you were hoping to get from a response. We'll see if this isn't the last time I edit this post. Just please don't make the classic mistakes that people making games tend to make. I know it is more work, but it is SO worth it. A good game is the culmination of lots of small good things.

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Villains can get away with being "Har Har Har, I'm Evil". The thing is, they have to do it right. Kefka in FFVI was a good example of a villain who enjoyed being evil and substituted craziness for depth. And they did it right.

I think the major advantage of the 8bit and 16bit RPGs over the newer RPGs is that they often tell the same breadth of story in a lot less time. When Tales of Phantasia takes a LONG time to beat, it takes a long time to beat because you spend a long time actually playing the game. On the other hand, when FFVIII takes a long time it is for a very different reason. And the graphics were just bad enough for imagination to take over. Kind of like when you read a book.

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Don't forget the intro sequence. You need something to capture the player's attention and curiosity. Take FFVI. It starts off with people talking about raiding a town with someone who killed 50 soldiers like they were pie. Then the intro credits take place while watching the mechs trek to the town (with some pretty great music, which unfortunately doesn't appear in the rest of the game in that form).

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Differentiate. Combat should not be the same as you fight different types of monsters; the worst thing you can do is make combat winnable by having everyone attack and do nothing else. Characters should not be relatively similar. If you introduce a character, they need something unique, above and beyond "I cast spells and so does everyone else, and I also smack people with weapons too". Give me a reason to pick a certain character beyond just looking at their base stats.

Make magic useable. I shouldn't be able to use my big nukes on trash monsters and think I'll have a ton of mana left to use on the boss, but I shouldn't slog through enemies who have high defense against physical attacks just to avoid using mana so I can actually defeat the boss.

Make magic effects quick. If I can get through 100 trash monsters in a couple minutes using physical attacks but I have to watch the same 10-second animation again and again each time I cast fire, I'm using physical attackers. Pretty effects are nice; effects that are short *and* pretty are much better.

Bosses should not be defeatable by having everyone use physical attacks or having everyone use magic attacks. Ever. Unique character abilities are made for boss fights. Ideally though, there should be more than one way to defeat a boss and you shouldn't be tied to having a specific character in the fight (unless, of course, storyline doesn't give you the choice of *not* bringing them). I mean, say a boss has some heavy-hitting attack that they build up that someone can dissipate somehow (think Kain using jump on Valvalis' turning herself into a whirlwind). Obviously, I can dissipate it somehow. I should also be able to do things like nullify the effect somehow (shell/protect, for example), draw the attack to a specific character, reflect it onto the boss instead (even if it's an elemental attack and the boss is healed a bit). The *best* strategy may be to use the skill that dissipates it, but a choice of strategies makes the fight more interesting.

Weak points of bosses shouldn't be obvious (i.e. none of "Oh, this boss is casting spells all the time so I'll have Celes use her Runic ability to draw the magic"). Different character abilities could be used ideally in subtle ways. The key is limited choice: I don't want just anything I try to work, but I don't want only one thing to work and I don't want to be smacked in the face with what to do.

Don't have 6,000,000 lines of dialogue before a boss fight, and don't make the closest save point 10 miles back. If I can't get back to a boss easily, I'm not going to experiment on how to beat the boss; I'll stick to something standard. If something standard doesn't work (a good thing!), I'll get frustrated. I don't mind failure as long as the cost isn't exorbitantly high and as long as I don't waste all kinds of time.

Intro sequence: start off in the middle of something. The best sequences, I think, are ones where you're thrown into the middle of something and you pick up the pieces as you go. FF VI had you attack a town to get the esper; FF VII had you blow up a mine. Those were good because they immediately drew you in. FF IV had you fly back to the castle and talk to the king; not bad, but not as gripping because there wasn't much action to it (getting attacked by trash mobs on the airship hardly counts). FF VIII had a great intro FMV and then started by having you run around Balamb Garden and talk to people. Boring.

Ideally, your character's backstories and the intro sequence will allow for the fact that your characters aren't the most powerful people in the world but that they're not inexperienced kids either. Celes was incredibly weak for a general, for example. Without doing any significant levelling, Locke seemed better to me initially, even after Celes got her equipment. Cloud starting off as a pansy level 7 or so with little or no materia was unbelievable. Basically, if your characters are going to go from being nothings to being complete superheros, their position in life should reflect that.

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Don't have 6,000,000 lines of dialogue before a boss fight, and don't make the closest save point 10 miles back.

Better idea: don't have save points. Some sort of "heal point" where getting to hit restores your party's HP/MP (which some modern RPGs have done with their save points) is fine, but there's no excuse for having save points in this day and age. There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to quicksave/quickload in RPGs like you've been able to do in FPSes for ages. You wouldn't want to be able to do it mid-battle (otherwise people could just quicksave/quickload every round over and over until the dice went in their favor), but at any other time (including during cutscenes and dialog!) it should be possible.

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Music! It has to be mood fitting, and MUST not become annoying after 2 battle to the point where I mute my game (for example, I burst into dance every time I get into battle in Chrono Trigger. This is a good thing until I start singing it, then it becomes hazardous to others' health)

A compelling combat system, simple but fun (Elegant would be a good word for it:IE, nowhere near Chrono Cross')

A story worth playing through (2D happen to outperform many 3D here because they balance the budget in favor of graphical designers rather than writing compelling stories)

An introductory sequence that makes you want to play. SO many games with tons of potential somehow mess this up, and it makes it REALLY hard to get into it. Waking up in another dimension with a drowned version of myself is not exciting. Watching some hot chick I just met disappear at the hands of my best friend, that's compelling. I want to save her.

Characters whose interaction feels good: In fact, just don't let the characters have (audible) speech at all (except for extremely long-winded speeches). Also, its really corny when the main character is the most talkative because it makes the game feel like you're just an observer. At the same time, characters that NEVER talk, even in text, that you control, just can feel silly sometimes (Like in SMRPG where we learn mario is an apparent MUTE and must talk through Charades, good for lols tho).

I digress: but characters need to be realistic in psychology, although in a physical sense they'll always be messed up SOMEHOW. They should seek support from one another, or want to kill each other, evidence of comedic relief should exist.

A story that feels like it gives ME control of the outcome. If I wanted to run X meters to the next cutscene where nothign I do matters, I'd learn to read.

PUZZLES: The easiest way to extend the gameplay time for a game (and enhance the level of engrossment in dungeons, thus leading to more fun) would just be adding more and complex puzzles. The ones in Golden Sun 1&2 were rather glorious, especially because they took advantage of the Characters' main abilities without going overboard. (Definition of Overboard: YOU GAINED THE ABILITY TO BURN VINES, NOW QUICKLY, EVERY PUZZLE IN THIS GAME REQUIRES YOU TO DO THIS).

EDIT:

AND ALL CINEMATICS AND IN-GAME TUTORIALS SHOULD BE SKIPPABLE.

I cry tears of blood every time I take my Chaos racing in Sonic Adventure 2 (not an rpg but still applicable) and I have to sit through the incredibly gay (and pausable so theres no excuse not to have it skippable) intro for every_single_race.

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Seeing as how FFIV on DS is my first real experience since I only played about 15 hours of FFVII, I'd say the storyline is absolutely key. Just make sure to not play into the cliche of FF storylines. Of course, you can't avoid the good vs. evil stuff, but you take ones like Chrono Trigger, SPOILER ALERT

......where you think Magus is your threat of raising up Lavos to help rule the earth, but actually trying to destroy him, was a good twist.

And as far as weapon classes go, make it interesting, but don't get too deep with it. KOTOR II was too in depth for me to even want to continue playing. Not to mention that annoying first few hours playing as that droid on that abandoned mining station.

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Hmm... My favorite 2D RPG types were Shining Force 2, Chrono Trigger and Ogre Battle (Not sure Landstalker counts as RPG)...

The first thing that comes to mind for me was the music in all of them. I can still remember the heroic music of my characters attacking in shining force and the dreadful enemy attack tune when I know my healer has been singeled out and destroyed. Ogre Battle and Chrono Trigger the same thing. They had different boss music for different epic levels that I felt fit really well and really got my palms sweaty.

Though most importantly to me an interesting but not TOO DAMN CONFUSING storyline to follow. Of course "confusing" is purely subjective. Even a simple plot with fitting and genuinely fitting (not just purely cliche) twists I really enjoy.

Also I always felt having some form of customization was always a plus in RPGs. Materia system in FF7, the custom army groups in Ogre Battle and the few choices in Shining force 2 (and assuming the others) when it came to leveling up your armies classes when you had certain items. Lets you have a more personal attachment to your characters in more ways then just their personalities y'know?

Combat of course is a fair chunk of any RPG. Something even slighty unique or a simple improvement over an already proven system doesn't hurt. Just don't make combat a overly involved experience of the game.

Balance my friend. :)

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I recall something about how simplified characters, with no voice of their own, become a reflection of the person playing them. Something about filling in the gaps with yourself and all that.

Quoted for truth.

One of the biggest factors in gameplay is total immersion.

Naturally, the more one can relate to any given character, the more addictive the game is, but there has to be some distance between the characters and the player.

If you allow a player to directly insert themselves into a game, then the immersion fractures. It's more or less easier to relate to someone else instead of oneself, which is why the silent protagonists of FPSs work.

For example, if a character that a player named after themselves's fellow friend dies, the player is more likely to think "I've never liked you, good riddance" or something to that effect.

Whereas, if a character has the default name and his friend dies, the player is more likely to think "Wow, I know just how that guy feels..."

At least, this is all my quasi-philosophy/rationalization for always using the default name when choosing character names, and hopefully that all made sense.

Also here is a good place to start for some things to not do.

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Weird…I was actually thinking about this either yesterday or today. And, even weirder, I was ALSO thinking about messing around with RPG Maker, especially after playing Final Fantasy: Endless Nova, but decided against it, due to it probably being incredibly time-consuming.

I’ve thought about everything I’m about to write many, many times before, so this isn’t just spur of the moment. I’ve only tried to put it into words a couple times, so please forgive me if I mess something up...

I couldn’t make up my mind. At first, I was going to say music. Then, I changed it to story. I just kept going around and around with all aspects. I will give what I believe makes a good 2D (or any) RPG, but first, I’ll preface it by saying this: Most aspects of an RPG depend on or hurt each other to some degree. If a game has great music but a lousy story, there’s some value. If it has a great story but lousy music, there is some value. That being said...

1. I think the story is above the music. That is, I believe it could be said (very carefully?) that the RPG IS the story. For example, Final Fantasy VI is Terra’s discovery of compassion, Locke’s experiences with guilt, Cyan’s struggle with revenge, and more. Story-telling involved words and communication. There is nothing more universal than this. Everything speaks in some way. If a story is bad, putting it to good music only glorifies something that is bad.

I recently was in a conversation with an acquaintance about music and lyrics. I said that most of the time, the style of music and the quality of that music doesn’t really matter too much to me, because if what is being communicated by the lyrics is bad, the very core of the song is bad. To give an extreme analogy (which was, at the time, the best way I could try to make the point), I said it was like dressing up a turd in seductive clothing and calling it sexy. Sorry if that’s crude, but my point is that outwardly adorning something that is ugly does not make it more beautiful. On the positive side, outwardly dressing up something that is beautiful with something that is ugly does not make that thing ugly. Therefore…

2. ...music is second. Music is universal all over the world. It is a universal language. Music accentuates the story (made up of plot, characters, settings, action, etc.). The story would be good and could stand on its own, but music (as we all know, since we go to this site :smile:) can help magnify (like a magnifying glass) the beauty or ugliness, light or darkness that is already there in the story. Of course, music can stand on its own, for which I’m thankful, but in the context of this discussion, it is inextricably tied to the story, and therefore is not supposed to stand completely on its own.

3. Somewhat believable characters would be third. I say somewhat, because we all probably don’t play RPGs, watch movies, or read books because we want the day-in, day-out kind of things we already experience. And yet, they should be realistic and believable. The reason there should be an aspect of unbelievability is because it stretches us, which can, but sometimes may not, be good (depending on what direction we are being stretched). For example, though he is not a particular favorite, either my first or second (still undecided) favorite character in an RPG is Squall from Final Fantasy VIII. People have complained that he’s too stiff, or mean, or withdrawn. I say to that, “That’s the point.” The story is about Squall himself being changed, more than it is just about destroying an evil enemy. Without Squall’s change, to the point where he actually smiles and shows joy at the very ending sequence, is MUCH more important that defeating an enemy. A greater enemy than Ultimecia is destroyed, namely, Squall, by him learning to love others. (Sorry, I just don’t know how else to put that. Take it or leave it.)

4. Everything else – gameplay, sound, graphics, and more, would be fourth. Yes, they are important, and they can help in communicating the story, but are not essential.

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Also here is a good place to start for some things to not do.

I don't know if that's a list of what not to do...but the website calling it a list of clichés is SO true. As I'm reading them one or more games immediately come to mind as I read them. Pretty funny...I never realized how often those scenarios are used.

Also, number 6 is also true of most Disney animated movies...

"RPG characters with two living parents are almost unheard of. As a general rule, male characters will only have a mother, and female characters will only have a father. The missing parent either vanished mysteriously and traumatically several years ago or is never referred to at all. Frequently the main character's surviving parent will also meet an awkward end just after the story begins, thus freeing him of inconvenient filial obligations."

Totally lol'ed at number 20...

Just Nod Your Head And Smile

And no matter how big that big-ass sword is, you won't stand out in a crowd. Nobody ever crosses the street to avoid you or seems to be especially shocked or alarmed when a heavily armed gang bursts into their house during dinner, rummages through their posessions, and demands to know if they've seen a black-caped man. People can get used to anything, apparently

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Common battles need to end quickly, and occur less often than they generally do.

Boss fights need to be epic, and push the envelope. I would love it if random battles were just two-framed sprite movements with effects, and boss battles were beautifully rendered, cinematic experiences. And do shit in those boss fights that one doesn't expect. Unbridled violence and bloodshed on the female/young character or something.

An RPG/FPS would be neat. Running around, and instead of fading to a battle scene, you zoom into first person view.

The main thing that irks me about RPGs, though, is you can't pick it up and instantly be good at it. I can pick up Zelda and kick some ass in the beginning no matter what. But you can't pick up Final Fantasy and immediately kick ass because your skill is saved to flash memory, not muscle memory. (Granted I won't have the Master Sword in the beginning of a zelda game, but at least I don't have to grind for it.)

I don't know anything about RPG maker by the way. I don't know if you can do anything like that.

also, good music is extremely important. If Final Fantasy didn't play classics at me throughout most of the game, I wouldn't have gotten through it. Random battles were an opportunity to rock out, because just holding the action button isn't my idea of fun.

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Everything, man everything. I am a person who's very much into detail and complexity. It seems that it wasn't as hard to make a good game in that time because with 2D you had less to work with, but you could still make it good. I haven't played the newer FFs in depth so I cannot judge them at all, but because of 3-D and 4-D graphics, lighting, effects, etc that has to be consistent with the dimensional complexity, it would take a lot more to make a newer RPG good.

I remember playing less popular RPGs that bared me to death because I cared nothing for the story. It was just... high-detailed BS. It wasn't Final Fantasy, but whatever it was, I won't call it bad, but it seemed so pointless.

It's funny... I don't play RPGs often (too time-consuming; I have a life), but almost every RPG I've played in depth has always been one that almost everyone adores.

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Music is huge, as a lot of others have indicated. Also, storyline, not just in terms of some originality, but in terms of good, interesting characters who you can really connect with. I know it wasn't an old-school 2D RPG, but I really got into Persona 4 about a month ago because the characters, storyline, and music were so good. Battles obviously play a part as well, though for me, I tend to prefer a quick battle system like the Tales games. Plus with RPG maker, your options are a bit more limited.

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I've played quite a few RPGs, and I've learned a lot as to what makes one good and another mediocre. Story, memorable characters, MUSIC, perfect villians, etc. are all important, for sure. I have found, however, that any single element, even if done perfectly, will not save the game unless everything else is done very well. Everything needs to be working in harmony with everything else - think of the operas of Wagner. The thing that made them so incredible was that every element was interconnected in some way or another. The story was portrayed through the acting and music very well, the music accented the acting and the story perfectly, and the acting had a synergy with the story and music that is hard to describe.

Look at FFVI, now. The characters push the story perfectly, the music accented the characters and story with the leitmotifs and wonderful sound, and the story was very well constructed. I assure you that if ANY of those elements were misplaced in any way, everything would just fall apart. It requires everything to be working in perfect harmony.

If your up to doing this, I'd love to see the final product (hell, if your really serious about it, I'd love to help :))

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I like Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape: Torment for their epic storylines, in-depth dialogue and compelling characters. Not to mention awesome combat/magic systems (AD&D rules just work so well). Also length is a huge plus. When I can play a game for over 100 hours without getting bored or even finishing it for the first time..Well they must have done something right, right? :<

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Breath of Fire did not hold any punches when it came to storyline. Genocide, murder, everything was there. Same with FF6 when you think about it. Villains are not always "cool but dark characters" you need to realise that they are irredeemably evil. There are also some conventions that, although we hate them in some ways, work:

Orphans with special powers (BoF1, BoF2, FF4's Rydia and even Cecil, FF6's Terra).

Headstrong princess (BoF 1 and 2, FF4's Rosa (not technically a princess), Half the cast in FF5)

Strong Silent type: That big dude in BoF2... Sabin, hell, even Umaro

These conventions became conventions because they worked.

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I can't really get into most of those old RPGs anymore. I finished a bunch of them such as Final Fantasy IV and Breath of Fire 2, but after that the DQ/FF template of JRPGs got old real fast for me, and the small niche differences between the games weren't eough to capture my interest. Story or music cannot really carry a game for me if the gameplay doesn't hold up. By the time I was trying out stuff like Lufia and Final Fantasy VI, I noticed how I pretty much started cheating my way through the actual gameplay sections just to find out what happens next, and by then it just felt like I was watching a movie instead of playing agame.

Apart from that, the plots too were feeling more and more cookie-cutter and template-based with the teenage orphan heroes, token puppet bad guys and big evil demon masterminds that simply want to destroy the world.

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Villains are not always "cool but dark characters" you need to realise that they are irredeemably evil.

Or maybe they're redeemable for part of the way through the story but they make a choice that ruins them. A villain who you can sympathize with a bit is more effective, in my opinion, than one who's nothing but cold and evil. One of the more effective villians in later Final Fantasy games was, in my opinon, Kuja from FF IX, simply because Kuja was sent to do the job Zidane could not do, but Zidane is faced with the realization near the end of the game that he could've been the orchestrator of war that Kuja ended up being, that Zidane was bred for that purpose and turned aside.

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I can't really get into most of those old RPGs anymore. I finished a bunch of them such as Final Fantasy IV and Breath of Fire 2, but after that the DQ/FF template of JRPGs got old real fast for me, and the small niche differences between the games weren't eough to capture my interest. Story or music cannot really carry a game for me if the gameplay doesn't hold up. By the time I was trying out stuff like Lufia and Final Fantasy VI, I noticed how I pretty much started cheating my way through the actual gameplay sections just to find out what happens next, and by then it just felt like I was watching a movie instead of playing agame.

Apart from that, the plots too were feeling more and more cookie-cutter and template-based with the teenage orphan heroes, token puppet bad guys and big evil demon masterminds that simply want to destroy the world.

As much as I hate cliché anything, Dragon Quest VIII was so good.

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Just remembered something...

No modern day references. This is one thing that bugged me about Working Designs. In the middle of their games like Lunar, you get references to modern day people or happenings. Nothing breaks an RPG game's fantasy atmosphere like having a reference to real-world events in some sad attempt to be funny.

Leave them out, don't even think off adding them, and forget that such immersion-breaking "humor" exists. Your game will be better for it.

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