VGMix Revival

[Sinewav]

So have a site half-done for years and not letting someone else step in (even temporarily) just to get the ball moving again is so hard a concept? I totally get that VGMix is his baby and he wants freedom to do what he wants, but the current product is that what is done is left to stagnate.

I know...you can't blame the guy for having an idea, trying to get it done, and halfway through the opportunity for greatness in the form of composing popular mainstream game soundtracks knocks on the door that he would have been stupid to walk away from. My reasoning is that he's gotta realize with his current schedule, that the site will never get done if he doesn't have others come in and work on it in his stead. So, while he might not be working on it directly and that might take a bit of the joy away, at least the site would be finished with all the grand ideas they originally had for his version. (there was a lot too, if I remember correctly) It's not like it wouldn't be his site anymore, either. If the plans and ideas were his, and he has them all drawn up and just doesn't have the time to code them, it's still his stuff....just with another person's manpower helping out.

I'm not saying I agree with his decision, but it is his to make (no matter how poor of a decision I think it is).

I study filmmaking and do a lot of other AV and music stuff on the side. One thing I can tell you is that the creative world is chalk-full of perfectionists who like to do everything themselves instead of delegating, even if they NEED to delegate. I've never talked to the guy, but virt seems like he's that type of person. I'm not trying to rag on him (I have to fight it sometimes, because I'm that type as well), I'm just saying I think I understand where he's coming from.

[FireSlash]

Offer something unique, please!

Been pondering an alternate solution.. Basically expanding my wip uploader to allow perma uploads, segmenting it out by artist so each has their own "personal" page, and having a "main" site which indexes and can search all "sub" sites. You could sort of imagine it like a stripped out blog, but retooled for music only; allowing feedback on wips, a place to showcase finals, etc.

Though I've not been motivated to work on it since so many vgmix clones are popping up; and honestly someone else has probably already done this. I might do it if there's interest... but seeing sites like remixed.vg and remixsite.org pop up, I fear I'd only be furthering the splitting of the community.

[zircon]

Sindra, it's not just virt who is working on the new VGMix. He may be one of the conceptual designers, but he has a whole team of volunteer coders. However, all of them are busy as well. It's a massive project - you make it sound like it's just virt, but that has never been the case.

[Skummel Maske]

Been pondering an alternate solution.. Basically expanding my wip uploader to allow perma uploads, segmenting it out by artist so each has their own "personal" page, and having a "main" site which indexes and can search all "sub" sites. You could sort of imagine it like a stripped out blog, but retooled for music only; allowing feedback on wips, a place to showcase finals, etc.

Though I've not been motivated to work on it since so many vgmix clones are popping up; and honestly someone else has probably already done this. I might do it if there's interest... but seeing sites like remixed.vg and remixsite.org pop up, I fear I'd only be furthering the splitting of the community.

There might possibly be someone else who has already done this, but don't let that stop you! I think it's a great idea, and a logical expansion to what you already have.

[analoq]

Though I've not been motivated to work on it since so many vgmix clones are popping up; and honestly someone else has probably already done this. I might do it if there's interest... but seeing sites like remixed.vg and remixsite.org pop up, I fear I'd only be furthering the splitting of the community.

The clones that have popped up are seemingly the result of novices eager to develop a site with little consideration to the community at large. You seem to be thinking beyond that sort of narcissism, so you'll probably come to the right decisions.

While your doubts are well founded, it could just be a matter of execution. I remember Jeremy Morse developed a site that had tags of the various OC ReMixes. Morse's idea was very good, but the execution as a separate site was cumbersome. He eventually gave up on it but now OCR has its own tags and it's probably the most useful feature added to the site since I've been here.

As for myself I took something I was passionate about, compos, and developed a site to simplify the tasks of running compos and participating in them. Instead of executing it as a separate site with its own authentication scheme I was able to integrate it into an already established site in the community. It's a niche, but it does make life easier for those who use it and there's nothing else quite like it.

cheers.

[Sindra]

Sindra, it's not just virt who is working on the new VGMix. He may be one of the conceptual designers, but he has a whole team of volunteer coders. However, all of them are busy as well. It's a massive project - you make it sound like it's just virt, but that has never been the case.

Nobody corrected me. People (like Sinewav there, though he might not have known either) gave me the impression the reason it wasn't going forward was because of Virt's busy schedule, which just led me to believe he was why it wasn't going forward.

[djpretzel]

While your doubts are well founded, it could just be a matter of execution. I remember Jeremy Morse developed a site that had tags of the various OC ReMixes. Morse's idea was very good, but the execution as a separate site was cumbersome. He eventually gave up on it but now OCR has its own tags and it's probably the most useful feature added to the site since I've been here.

As for myself I took something I was passionate about, compos, and developed a site to simplify the tasks of running compos and participating in them. Instead of executing it as a separate site with its own authentication scheme I was able to integrate it into an already established site in the community. It's a niche, but it does make life easier for those who use it and there's nothing else quite like it.

cheers.

Well, unfortunately, this thread almost needs to be moved/retitled at this point, as it's turned less into a discussion about VGMix in general and more of an overall meditation on the purpose of vgm arrangement sites and potential interaction with OCR.

analoq, regarding the tags addition, thanks - I honestly feel like it needs to be further integrated to be more useful, but we're working on that (display on mix detail pages, etc.). I personally like the streaming YouTube preview, and god knows the recent redesign has, in my opinion, really eliminated a lot of the redundancy/clutter. Oh, it's Joshua Morse, not Jeremy

Now, back on topic: I've been thinking about this very issue for over a year. I've shared some of my thoughts with Jake, Andy, and others. Here they are, more or less:

1. My own emphasis has been, is, and will always remain ocremix.org. In case anyone was wondering, I'm in it for the long haul, and am committed to not only keeping this site running, but improving it, for as long as I am able.
   
2. That being said, I think improvement means being open-minded. I don't want to dilute or in any way lessen our existing process and what it means to have a mix submitted and approved, but what I've been thinking is that our workshop forums could potentially be extended/expanded to include functionality similar in nature to what is being described. That was actually part of my rationale for renaming them to "Workshop" - to avoid pigeonholing music posted there as just works-in-progress only. The benefits of this solution are that it would allow folks to share WIP and completed music quickly, still get a spotlight for it, and potentially allow other types of integrations w/ game/composer database info down the road. All while using existing OCR forum accounts and not creating a whole other site, or group of sites, that splinter things.
   
3. It's 2009. If someone wants to post music on the Internet, they have zillions of great options. YouTube, Last.fm, Tindeck, and dozens of other sites provide services for free that let you make your mixes available to the world. It seems to me, what OCR adds is that we have standards and judges and an awesome community and some guidelines for what a vgm mix should be. Workshop mixes wouldn't have to line up with those guidelines, but they'd still get the benefit of being part of a larger community of VGM fans.
   
4. As I see it, there are probably two main groups of folks interested in a new VGMix or a VGMix clone: Those who legitimately want a site with that specific functionality/atmosphere, or those who simply don't like me or OC ReMix, for whatever reason. I'm not sure I can do too much about the latter group, but the former group is looking for something legit, and if OCR can meet all or part of those requirements without compromising what we're all about, that seems like a good idea to me.
   
5. Generally speaking, my vision for doing this involves building on top of vBulletin. They're about to release a new version, 4.0, with a lot of changes, so my thinking is to wait until they go final with it, upgrade, then start pursuing what's possible. That's probably 3-4 months, give or take, so we'd be looking at late Q1 or early Q2 for exploring this. If folks feel like my idea is poop, or simply can't wait that long, everyone is obviously free to create their own website, and we can have a dozen such sites to choose from. Hell, who knows, maybe that'd be a good thing and promote innovation or healthy competition or what not. To me, because I know that I'm behind OCR 110%, I always will be, and because I'm proud of what we've all already built, I honestly believe my proposal is preferable.
   

That's pretty much it; curious as to everyone's thoughts, as always.

[ella guro]

[*]As I see it, there are probably two main groups of folks interested in a new VGMix or a VGMix clone: Those who legitimately want a site with that specific functionality/atmosphere, or those who simply don't like me or OC ReMix, for whatever reason. I'm not sure I can do too much about the latter group, but the former group is looking for something legit, and if OCR can meet all or part of those requirements without compromising what we're all about, that seems like a good idea to me.

[*]Generally speaking, my vision for doing this involves building on top of vBulletin. They're about to release a new version, 4.0, with a lot of changes, so my thinking is to wait until they go final with it, upgrade, then start pursuing what's possible. That's probably 3-4 months, give or take, so we'd be looking at late Q1 or early Q2 for exploring this. If folks feel like my idea is poop, or simply can't wait that long, everyone is obviously free to create their own website, and we can have a dozen such sites to choose from. Hell, who knows, maybe that'd be a good thing and promote innovation or healthy competition or what not. To me, because I know that I'm behind OCR 110%, I always will be, and because I'm proud of what we've all already built, I honestly believe my proposal is preferable.

That's pretty much it; curious as to everyone's thoughts, as always.

I feel like if VGMix or another site could accomplish what VGMix2 originally set out to do, it would be doing something that maybe OCR isn't capable of doing for a couple of reasons:

1) There's a certain subset of people in the community who, (like you said) for whatever reason, aren't involved in OCR and it brings those people on board. It also makes them more accessible to the rest of the community, especially people who haven't been around as long. I think that's important because it introduces more variety of points of view into the community, variety which might not be coming into the mix otherwise.

2) The way VGMix2 was set up (or at least supposed to be set up) was specifically on the artist and gave little more incentive for people to give/get feedback and improve their mixes. OCR has always seemed a bit more organized and listener-oriented. The Workshop forums can do that over here, but there isn't an incentive built into to the way the site works, and there are a lot of mixes posted there so there's still limited amount of people who read and comment on them. Also, by limiting it so that you could only post 1 mix every two weeks, VGMix gave each individual mix a little bit more of a spotlight. OCR could certainly have an incentive system like that and find a way to get more people checking the Workshop forums. And it could find a way to more greatly separate and spotlight completed mixes from the works and progress, it's just that it might be hard to have all that exist without fundamentally altering the site.

Now I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any improvements made to the site or that they wouldn't work, just that it might not be realistic to assume that OCR could meet all the expectations of the things a site like VGMix used to do. I think it's very reasonable to try to weigh in what OCR is capable of doing well ("doing well" is the key phrase here) and stay true to that as much as possible.

Also as a side note 'cause a few people in the thread talked about this: I don't think that a lot of additional remix sites will split the community. Certainly when VgMix1/VgMix2 was around there were people who only went there and people who only came here, but my impression is that many many people used both sites. If someone can create a site that has an interesting idea behind it and a solid base of users, I think that only helps the community. Maybe, like djp said, if they work well they can be integrated into OCR in some way? And even if not it's good for the community to have them around. But either way, OCR is plenty established already for something to steal its thunder.

[k-wix]

1. That being said, I think improvement means being open-minded. I don't want to dilute or in any way lessen our existing process and what it means to have a mix submitted and approved, but what I've been thinking is that our workshop forums could potentially be extended/expanded to include functionality similar in nature to what is being described. That was actually part of my rationale for renaming them to "Workshop" - to avoid pigeonholing music posted there as just works-in-progress only. The benefits of this solution are that it would allow folks to share WIP and completed music quickly, still get a spotlight for it, and potentially allow other types of integrations w/ game/composer database info down the road. All while using existing OCR forum accounts and not creating a whole other site, or group of sites, that splinter things.

This is a really cool idea, I'd be curious to see how it would all work though. Would it just be straight up forum-based? or would you actually try highlighting some of the 'workshop' stuff on the main site? Maybe you could work something out where you could move a song from the workshop section to the main OCR site once it passed the judges or something to that effect. Something like a tier system for the songs, but that might get a little confusing.

[ella guro]

This is a really cool idea, I'd be curious to see how it would all work though. Would it just be straight up forum-based? or would you actually try highlighting some of the 'workshop' stuff on the main site? Maybe you could work something out where you could move a song from the workshop section to the main OCR site once it passed the judges or something to that effect. Something like a tier system for the songs, but that might get a little confusing.

I just wanna clarify that I think this is a good idea too, and I'm all for it getting implemented in some way. And I agree 100% about being open for improvement and being open-minded as possible. I mainly just wanted to point out that OCR can't fulfill every need of the community, nor should it have to. I think it's better to work in conjunction with other places that can fulfill those other needs instead of trying to have this site do everything.

[Tinaddar]

So I’ve been around for quite a while, though only as a listener, and a pretty quiet one too. Don’t often post on the forums (this is only my second post here at OCR), but this topic really interests me. I’ve been listening to the OcRemixes for a long time, before I ever discovered VGMix. Unfortunately, I discovered VGMix2 too late, just before it came down, and only managed to get 850 of the songs that were there. (I’ve been assured the database is still intact, just not currently online…) Not everything I found there was great, but a lot of it was amazing.

For a long time, I wondered what people over here at OCR thought about VGMix. It’s great that I generally am seeing support! It’s so weird to see all of the posters, ‘cause I recognize the names of people who created songs I love. I sort of feel like I know some of you, even though I’ve never even seen you post before, let alone actually talked to you.

I like OcRemix, but VGMix did something that I just don’t think OCR is going to ever do. Yes, OCR has a work in progress forum, but VGMix took that (apparently) so much further. I say apparently because sadly, I never got to take part in rating the remixes, but from what I hear it works out very well. Yes, there are alternative ways that artists can upload their music, for example youtube, but I see two glaring problems with that. First, there is no sense of community, and second, how is someone like me supposed to find all the work that is done? Am I supposed to scour youtube for hours and hours every day?

This ties in to my thoughts on having a whole bunch of remix sites out there. I am under the impression that back in the day, there was VGMix and OcRemix, and they were the big two. VGMix let anyone in, and helped newcomers out, while OcRemix was more of a site for people who already knew what they were doing. Both are great, and great music came out of both. A number of songs were on both, as were many artists. And, when there were just the two big ones, it wasn’t too much trouble for an artist to kind of hang out in both communities. However, when there are dozens of these sites out there, I know that if I were creating music it would simply be too much of my time trying to hang out in all of them, and as a listener it is sort of a pain to have to try to keep up with everything. I already try to stay on top of the new OcRemixes, the new remix albums they do, as well as DoD and PRC and others, but it gets confusing and I’m a busy guy. I really like the idea of having both VGMix and OcRemix operating at full capacity, because I think they can exist complementary to each other, to improve the music and the community.

A few words about Virt. I don’t personally know him, by any means, but I’ve read what he had to say on the VGMix forums. Basically, he’d been saying that he wants to find people to work on it, but that everyone is just too busy. His last posts were in January though, so I really don’t know what he’s been up to in the past year. He did say that he loves the support, and that if there are any programmers interested that they should try to contact him.

Now, after reading this thread I found links to two other remix sites, so I know how I’m spending the rest of MY day…

[Kidd Cabbage]

I don't know the specifics of copyright as pertaining to websites, but assuming that virt's work on VGMix2 is copyrighted (I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be), the idea of remaking his site, a derivative work of his copyright, seems totally illegal to me if you're not getting his permission.

[djpretzel]

I don't know the specifics of copyright as pertaining to websites, but assuming that virt's work on VGMix2 is copyrighted (I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be), the idea of remaking his site, a derivative work of his copyright, seems totally illegal to me if you're not getting his permission.

Songs, graphics, etc. are protected by copyright. Names of businesses and products are protected by trademark. Ideas, on the other hand, can only be protected by patents, and I don't think anything about OCR, VGMix, or anything else being discussed is particularly patentable. In other words (and the same holds true for OCR), as long as it's called something else, doesn't reuse any graphics or take mixes without permission, etc., a website could be created with identical functionality. My question is, why bother, but then again, some folks seem to either be pessimistic that we can do anything here instead, or simply want a different sandbox to play in.

[Tinaddar]

My question is, why bother, but then again, some folks seem to either be pessimistic that we can do anything here instead, or simply want a different sandbox to play in.

It's not that we're pessimistic, or hate you, or anything like that. However, are you planning, at any point in the future, to let anyone upload anything they've been working on, without putting it through the judges panel? I really don't think you are, as that is against the spirit of OCR. However, that is exactly the spirit of VGMix, and a lot of people like the idea of having both.

Yes, you may get a very nice, functional and helpful work in progress section. In fact, I hope you do, and I hope everybody uses it and loves it. But at the end of the day (or rather, the end of the remix) when the artist decides "Yes, it is finished, and I'm happy with it," if the song doesn't live up to your standards it will just disappear. Maybe the song is good and people will like it, but it doesn't quite qualify as a remix. You would have to deny it on OcRemix, yet at VGMix it would still be available.

[djpretzel]

It's not that we're pessimistic, or hate you, or anything like that. However, are you planning, at any point in the future, to let anyone upload anything they've been working on, without putting it through the judges panel? I really don't think you are, as that is against the spirit of OCR. However, that is exactly the spirit of VGMix, and a lot of people like the idea of having both.

Yes, you may get a very nice, functional and helpful work in progress section. In fact, I hope you do, and I hope everybody uses it and loves it. But at the end of the day (or rather, the end of the remix) when the artist decides "Yes, it is finished, and I'm happy with it," if the song doesn't live up to your standards it will just disappear. Maybe the song is good and people will like it, but it doesn't quite qualify as a remix. You would have to deny it on OcRemix, yet at VGMix it would still be available.

There are a lot of assumptions about what I will or won't do in those two paragraphs, and all I was saying is that it was an idea worth exploring. I imagine developing all of the specifics would be more of a community dialogue, and a dialogue with the judges as well, but you're already assuming certain things are impossible and expressing skepticism. If that's not pessimism, I don't know what is. If you need more clarity, I can definitely say that I wasn't expecting mixes posted under an expanded workshop forum to just "disappear" - the forum as it is right now does not get purged, FYI, and that policy would remain in place. It would be up to the artist whether to submit the mix for formal consideration as an OC ReMix, but if they didn't, or if it was rejected, it would remain available on the workshop forums, as is the case presently.

[Level 99]

It’s so weird to see all of the posters, ‘cause I recognize the names of people who created songs I love....

...I already try to stay on top of the new OcRemixes, the new remix albums they do, as well as DoD and PRC and others, but it gets confusing and I’m a busy guy. I really like the idea of having both VGMix and OcRemix operating at full capacity, because I think they can exist complementary to each other, to improve the music and the community....

On the first quoted part, there was indeed a lot of sharing between OCR and VGMix2 back in the day. There was also a lot of one-siters who would stay on one site and wouldn't go to the other if their life depended on it. However, for the most-part, it fostered some healthy communities and competition, and this is coming from someone who started at VGMix2 and ended up coming over to OCR. It's very hard to replicate that kind of atmosphere now, though, due to more sites somewhat diluting the crowds shared and the community has been slowly moving forward in-general.

On the second part, thasauce.net does a lot of cataloging of recent remixes from many sites, like R:TS, OCR, remix.kwed, and so on. That's a great way to stay on top of things music-wise.

In-general, I'm really enjoying watching this discussion and seeing the different points people are making on where the situation stands now and where it can possibly be taken, particularly the transformation of the Workshop area. I have no clue how it could actually be pulled off to offer similar functionality, as there were a few things done over at VGMix2 that might directly conflict with the method of operations here, but I'm speaking out of my box now since I'm not a web-developer. Good luck to all trying to bring back that kind of functionality, I'll definitely be watching the progress with eager interest!

[liquid wind]

... a website could be created with identical functionality. My question is, why bother, but then again, some folks seem to either be pessimistic that we can do anything here instead, or simply want a different sandbox to play in.

it's not really redundant when you consider the fact that vgmix is down and all, I agree that there's room to build on that and do your own thing, vgmix2 was flawed and they had wanted to rework it anyway, but the vgmix clones I've seen have indeed been different, they're *not* exactly alike

as for why the forums here couldn't be something like what vgmix was, I'd have to see it to really have an opinion on it. I think for WIP's it would be great but how easily could completed works be sorted through under such a system and how much attention would they get? it could work but it seems just as easy to me to have different sites when their purposes are so clearly different, but I'm definitely looking forward to whatever you come up with

[zircon]

I'm sure a system could be devised here where completed songs could get some good attention (we could perhaps integrate our existing tagging system, for example.) There are plenty of possibilities. VGmix was certainly not stranger to the problem of songs getting lost, though. Unless you were a top-rated track (the vast majority of which either were OC ReMixes or would have been had they been submitted here) you were lost in a sea of other average or below-average mixes.

[Bleck]

Looking through all of the mixes for a song or game was what made me like VGMix in the first place. We have to realize that people can basically like anything - what would be constituted as a 'below-average mix' on OCR might find it's way onto people's playlists nonetheless. As soon as we start thinking of a way to separate the 'good mixes' from the bad, the idea has become an OCR-clone.

[liquid wind]

As soon as we start thinking of a way to separate the 'good mixes' from the bad, the idea has become an OCR-clone.

vgmix had a tier system, it was an OCR clone

[k-wix]

I imagine developing all of the specifics would be more of a community dialogue, and a dialogue with the judges as well,

I think one of the toughest hurdles so to speak would be dealing with the type of people who have a song, they like it, other people like it, but its definitely just not OCR standards. When that occurs, and the mix just sits in the WIP forums, it eventually just kinda dies. As one of the biggest fans of vgmix, i can tell you one of the biggest draws of the site is the fact that your song had a place when it was finished. It was rated, it had a group of people that usually liked it, and a group of people that usually disliked it. The mixer took what he could away and sometimes improved.

If you want to cater to the people who enjoyed vgmix, I really think you should come up with something for that type of person. Or that type of song, rather. I'd be really curious to hear your thoughts on that DJP, do you think this could be done within OCR?

[Tinaddar]

I think one of the toughest hurdles so to speak would be dealing with the type of people who have a song, they like it, other people like it, but its definitely just not OCR standards. When that occurs, and the mix just sits in the WIP forums, it eventually just kinda dies.

This, and a few other recent posts, have been pretty much what I was trying to say, and I'm sorry if I assumed anything or appeared pessimistic. But, even though the WIP forums and threads may be around forever, who can go through every WIP to find the completed songs? What about someone who is new, are they going to go through the forums to find the songs? That's what I meant by disappearing.

If you created some system for organizing these non-OCR tunes, then perhaps there wouldn't be a need for a new VGMix. However, this is simply not OcRemix anymore, so while you may not call it VGMix it is still a separate system. Frankly, I don't care who does it or what it is called, and I'm not rejecting the possibility that OcRemix could do it.

So far as VGMix2 songs disappearing in the lower tiers, I can only speak for myself but I tried to listen to everything that I could. I downloaded as many songs as I could independent of their ratings, and formed my own opinions on them. They may not have been as noticeable, but at least they were still there to be easily found.

[DarkeSword]

If you created some system for organizing these non-OCR tunes, then perhaps there wouldn't be a need for a new VGMix. However, this is simply not OcRemix anymore, so while you may not call it VGMix it is still a separate system. Frankly, I don't care who does it or what it is called, and I'm not rejecting the possibility that OcRemix could do it.

You're making far too many assumptions about what OCR is and what OCR isn't.

[zircon]

Looking through all of the mixes for a song or game was what made me like VGMix in the first place. We have to realize that people can basically like anything - what would be constituted as a 'below-average mix' on OCR might find it's way onto people's playlists nonetheless. As soon as we start thinking of a way to separate the 'good mixes' from the bad, the idea has become an OCR-clone.

Then obviously you didn't visit VGmix, since the whole site revolved around a 'chart' system that sorted mixes from 'best' to 'worst'. If we were to improve our WIP/completed system here we could easily have the ability to sort by game, just like with normal OCReMixes.

[Tinaddar]

You're making far too many assumptions about what OCR is and what OCR isn't.

My only assumption there was that songs that receive the "OC_ReMix" tag pass through a panel of judges. Was I wrong? If that panel of judges were to disappear, I don't think that OcRemix would still be the same entity. (And I don't mean to sound contentious, if perhaps I come off that way.)

If you still think I'm making unfair assumptions, feel free to let me know just what they are, and how they are incorrect, as I appreciate constructive criticism. However, I sort of feel like I'm derailing the thread, so go ahead and send me a private message, and I'll just get out of everyone's way for now.