The Extra Credits thread!! EC is amazing!

[BardicKnowledge]

Hey, I actually do mean I want more execution-based challenge, lol.

Great stuff, man.

Agreed here -- for instance, New Super Mario Bros. Wii was not nearly difficult enough for me. Part of this is a reluctance to make the advanced techniques required -- there's never a jump that requires the triple jump, and I can't think of any section that requires a wall jump either. Making the Star Coins and optional content require some extra creativity (through use of extended techniques not usually required) wouldn't be a bad thing.

Not using them for gameplay content and relegating them to "for fun only" moves misses out on a bunch of potential depth. NSMB is not the only game to do this (but I can't come up with any off the top of my head).

[Jonnas]

Just watched the last two videos:

1. The stuff you mention about Game Designers actually reminds me of a Project Management course I'm having in Civil Engineering. Being a project manager is very similar. I was almost expecting you to make some sort of "counterpart comparison" at some point;

2. I'm not one to complain if games are "easy" or anything, but the only time it has bothered me was in Twilight Princess, where there was practically no depth in exploration. Without that "sidequest" depth, the flaws in the main quest become much more prominent (like the laughably basic ways to defeat bosses (that aren't Stallord), or the normal enemies' infinite incompetence, or the rushed final dungeons).

These are flaws that were there in Wind Waker, but without all of the exploration and interesting items, they suddenly bother me.

3. Again, about "easy" games, I always laughed whenever "high difficulty" was considered a flaw among reviewers. It's one thing for that to be mentioned on a popular magazine (with a wide audience), but on a gaming news site, where their target audience is used to such games and would love a challenge? (Case in point, an RPG site criticizing Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn for being difficult. Many Fire Emblem fans are used to difficult challenges, and many disliked the fact that Path of Radiance's "Hard Mode" was removed for western releases.)

[The Damned]

sephfire, you cited the Pokémon games as positive examples of your subject. This pleases me.

No, don't take your hand away yet, I'm not done with it.

Wait.

Wait...

OK, now you can.

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

Good episode this week. Very important suggestions for game developers.

For anyone interested in additional commentary on the psychology behind gaming reward systems, I recommend checking out Tom Chatfield's TED talk on the 7 ways that games reward the brain.

[JCvgluvr]

Okay, did anyone else besides me find this week's episode a little overdramatic? I mean no disrespect for any of the members of Extra Credits, but it kind of seemed like they were looking too deep into a 30 year old arcade game. I find it hard to believe that a game so simplistic is putting forth such an engrossing narrative. Not only did they say that Missile Command offers a moral dilemma, but it offers the biggest and hardest moral dilemma ever put into a video game? Really?

This game plays just as easily and straightforwardly as games like Pac-Man and Centipede. Am I supposed to believe that Pac-man is an allegory of a man who's running away from the ghosts of his past, his regrets endlessly haunting him? Are the bugs in Centipede supposed to represent our darkest sins, which we must eliminate in order to attain holiness? Probably not.

To be honest, I totally expected Shadow of the Colossus to be put in the spotlight. That game can easily make the case of a game's narrative being on display only in its mechanics. (Granted, the game DID have a couple of cutscenes, but who cares about them?) Does a game as simple and mindless as Missile Command really merit such an in-depth focus? I'm not so sure.

[KyleJCrb]

Am I supposed to believe that Pac-man is an allegory of a man who's running away from the ghosts of his past, his regrets endlessly haunting him? Are the bugs in Centipede supposed to represent our darkest sins, which we must eliminate in order to attain holiness?

Yes, you should.

[Thalzon]

The question was whether a game can tell a story solely through its mechanics. Missile Command does just that, so it's an ideal game to focus on, especially since it's so simplistic. This is only six minutes long, after all.

I'm looking at my stack of games now and can't point out a single one that does not rely on cutscenes to at least tell a part of its narrative. In fact, it's rather difficult to imagine a modern game that can tell its story solely through gameplay.

It may have to do with the fact that not many games make YOU the main character. And the ones that do tend to love having huge infodumping cutscenes. A lot of games these days put you in the omnipresence seat, which means you're seeing a story from multiple perspectives, and suddenly you're just sitting and watching things happen.

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

I was reminded of the Green Goblin with the two cables in the Spiderman movie, one attached to Mary Jane, the other to a railcar filled with innocent civilians.

Spiderman breaking the system and managing to save both. (copout)

...or Joker in Dark Knight making Batman choose between Dent and Rachel.

I know games make choice common to gameplay narrative, but it's true that missile command managed to make you sweat the futility of attempting to survive the unsurvivable. An effective title.

[JCvgluvr]

The question was whether a game can tell a story solely through its mechanics. Missile Command does just that...

Well, that seems REALLY hard to believe. Yeah, the guy who made it had nightmares about the game...besides that, everything else seems like conspiracy theory speculation.

[The Author]

He's right though. The story is as deep as you want to perceive it, and it does so without cutscenes or anything. The narrative is entirely through the mechanics of the game, which is on its own an impressive feat.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I'm looking at my stack of games now and can't point out a single one that does not rely on cutscenes to at least tell a part of its narrative. In fact, it's rather difficult to imagine a modern game that can tell its story solely through gameplay.

There was actually one part in StarCraft 2 that I thought did this really well (though the rest of the game doesn't do this so much): the final mission in zeratul's memory crystal, where the protoss get overrun. The desperate, futile struggle is conveyed perfectly through the mechanics of the game.

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

How about any RPG boss battle you can't win which waits for you to die so you can progress?

[The Author]

How about any RPG boss battle you can't win which waits for you to die so you can progress?

It tells "a" story by the mechanics, but not the whole narrative.

Even Super Mario Bros uses "cutscenes" to fill in parts of the narrative (your princess is in another castle...".

So yeah, not many games do what missile command did: the narrative through gameplay alone.

It would be a nice challenge for a game designer to repeat that.

[zircon]

I liked this video, and it definitely made me think. However, I believe Missile Command was a poor example because, based on the Escapist comments, the overwhelming majority of people did NOT pick up any of this just by playing the game. If the game needs a 7 minute video to explain its narrative, then I'd say that's a pretty big failure of gameplay-as-narrative.

[JCvgluvr]

How about Portal? Yeah, there were a couple cutscenes at the end, but you don't need them to comprehend the narrative.

[The Derrit]

sorry people missile command has no narrative whatsoever

i know we're supposed to be all artsy here butttt no. you shoot missiles that's it

[BardicKnowledge]

sorry people missile command has no narrative whatsoever

i know we're supposed to be all artsy here butttt no. you shoot missiles that's it

I disagree -- you shoot missiles to save towns. That, balanced with the fact that you often must choose between saving your cities and your missile depots makes for interesting gameplay choices.

I will say that because there is always one optimal route (let 5 cities die, defend the last one) these choices aren't as important as they might otherwise be...but they are there, nonetheless.

[zircon]

I think a far better example of gameplay-as-narrative would be "Don't Look Back." Not a single line of dialog, but very emotional stuff - not ambiguous at all. No one can play the game through and not "get" it.

http://www.kongregate.com/games/TerryCavanagh/dont-look-back

Play it and you'll see what I mean.

[BardicKnowledge]

I think a far better example of gameplay-as-narrative would be "Don't Look Back." Not a single line of dialog, but very emotional stuff - not ambiguous at all. No one can play the game through and not "get" it.

http://www.kongregate.com/games/TerryCavanagh/dont-look-back

Play it and you'll see what I mean.

I love that game! All of Terry Cavanaugh's stuff is awesome...VVVVVV remains my favorite indie game.

[The Derrit]

I disagree -- you shoot missiles to save towns. That, balanced with the fact that you often must choose between saving your cities and your missile depots makes for interesting gameplay choices.

I will say that because there is always one optimal route (let 5 cities die, defend the last one) these choices aren't as important as they might otherwise be...but they are there, nonetheless.

well then there's narrative in quake 3 too, you're a poor soul put in a scary arena and you kill people all day just to stay alive. its a harrowing tale of the resiliency of the human spirit

NOT

you can make anything sound grandeur just the same as you can make it sound simplistic and dumb, but there is no greater meaning behind protecting the 'towns' except to get points ESPECIALLY if its not explained in something as simplistic as missile command

[BardicKnowledge]

well then there's narrative in quake 3 too, you're a poor soul put in a scary arena and you kill people all day just to stay alive. its a harrowing tale of the resiliency of the human spirit

NOT

you can make anything sound grandeur just the same as you can make it sound simplistic and dumb, but there is no greater meaning behind protecting the 'towns' except to get points ESPECIALLY if its not explained in something as simplistic as missile command

Quake never invites gameplay decisions like the choice between towns and depots. There's never a time where you _shouldn't_ be killing someone, for instance.

That said, I did mention that the optimal route is to always elect to let the towns die as opposed to the missile depots -- the game then gets easier as there are more missiles coming at you.

Derrit, did you try the game zircon mentioned? I'd be interested to know what you thought of it after finishing it (if you play platformers, it should only take you 15 min).

[Gario]

Y'know how you can tell a video is really good stuff? When you have a split down the middle which public opinion, and people are willing to discuss the topic days after it's been presented.

Missle command succeeded at exactly what Sephfire claimed at the beginning - it's a game where the intended narrative is told solely through the mechanics of the game, and nothing else. If anyone wants to argue against that, then feel free. I'm very curious what people would have to say against that point (other than simply disagreeing that there really is a narrative, since that's... well, boring).

I do agree with the original point that the video was a touch on the over dramatic side (Most difficult moral dilemma in video game history? Really?), but that made it more fun to watch.

[The Derrit]

Quake never invites gameplay decisions like the choice between towns and depots. There's never a time where you _shouldn't_ be killing someone, for instance.

That said, I did mention that the optimal route is to always elect to let the towns die as opposed to the missile depots -- the game then gets easier as there are more missiles coming at you.

Derrit, did you try the game zircon mentioned? I'd be interested to know what you thought of it after finishing it (if you play platformers, it should only take you 15 min).

i did actually and i thought zircon was right in that it told a meaningful story in simple terms with absolutely no dialogue or setup, outside of maybe the title screen. i won't spoil the game for anyone who feels like trying it but it does a wonderful job at using mechanics (don't look back) to explain what's 'going on.'

the difference here is that what you were doing was meaningful to the story as it was laid out, however simply. in missile command there is no consequence for letting all the cities die but one, it just makes it easier. in never look back the consequences for not following the narrative are tangible and can be plainly seen. so maybe you can say missile command is an interesting experiment on the human psyche but it is not a narrative

[Scufo]

Agree with Derrit. Missile Command does tell a narrative through mechanics alone, but to say anything more than that is giving it entirely too much credit.

[KyleJCrb]

Thus, the Extra Credits crew can declare this video a complete success. Why? It got people talking about this.