WillRock Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 22 hours ago, Neblix said: Half of said "brutally honest list of 40 plotholes" was also straight-up over-analysis (and a few others were actually explained in the movie and the person simply didn't pay attention, like "how did the monsters get loose?!" It showed Rey release them by accident.). The movie has problems, but not that many problems. Again, if you rally around a complaint about a gag (Every original trilogy Star Wars movie was funny) where Han Solo tries out Chewie's bow caster, I've filed you under "complaining just to complain". I have to say, this is something that annoys me about the Star Wars fandom. Its to the point where they will never be happy now. The originals raised the bar so high that everyone expects - no, DEMANDS - the impossible and cry bloody murder when they don't get it. This movies "backlash" (if you can call it that) just proves it - play it safe to try and show people you can do a "true star wars movie" and it gets bashed for being unoriginal. Do something a little more out there and people critique everything else about it. To keep this fandom happy, the next movie will have to be incredibly well acted, flow flawlessly, be funny without being cheesy, have no CGI but not have unrealistic puppetry (The phantom menace proved that one with Yoda), have NO plot holes whatsoever, be different enough to not rip off the OT, but not too far that its "not star wars anymore" be well written, etc etc. Honestly, this film did a FANTASTIC job of keeping as many people happy as possible considering what the fandom has come to expect. The prequels, while hardly masterpieces were not as bad as people make them out to be imo. Hell, Revenge of the Sith is up there with Return of the Jedi. But people expect SO MUCH that when something a bit lackluster comes out, they whinge, and bitch and cry and moan and completely ignore the good points of said films. Its sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argle Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I was surprised to find that John Williams did the score. The non-classic themes didn't sound like him. Kind of disappointing. Other than that I liked the movie, even the blatant fan service parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkeSword Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 56 minutes ago, Argle said: I was surprised to find that John Williams did the score. The non-classic themes didn't sound like him. Kind of disappointing. Other than that I liked the movie, even the blatant fan service parts. I would argue that the non-classic themes didn't sound like his other Star Wars work, but that Rey's Theme in particular feels straight out of one of his Harry Potter scores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moseph Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Just relistened to the Phantom Menace score today and I prefer the Force Awakens score. Rey's theme is one of my favorite bits of Star Wars music in any of the movies. While actually watching the movie, every time I specifically paid attention to the score, my thought was "Yeah, this sounds like Williams and I love it and it works really well." And it only just now occurred to me that most of Williams' fantasy/adventure scores are actually too florid for my taste -- Force Awakens is all the things I like about his music without any of the things I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Whoever made this needs to learn 2 grammar, but relevant all the same. LuckyXIII 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zykO Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 ^ so true it was clear from the moment the very first teaser appeared (and those who weren't already in the know because they had been stalking lucasfilm for the past decade), that there was going to be no way to avoid the two issues either directly or indirectly causing some folks to whine endlessly about the movie. the leads are a girl and a black dude. now that the initial shock wore off, the same people are finding new ways to bitch n moan about the movie while really still expressing the same asinine discomfort. here's the problem: this is the first completely non-lucas SW film and as such, it definitely feels different and so it is unsettling in its own subtle way. it just doesn't feel like a star wars movie even though it totally looks like one (for the most part). but the thing that's driving everybody up the wall isn't that TFA suddenly has illogical nonsense that couldn't happen in any universe we know (i find it amusing that people complain about physics in a SW film...) : it's just that subconsciously they're just pissed off the black dude has a crush on the androgenous looking chick who just wooped up the dude they wrongly thought was a sith lord. look, the movie's got its faults. so did the other 6, some more than others. the biggest flaw with TFA (if it can even be called one) is that it is too conservative in trying to undo lucas' incredible boldness in making the prequels the way he did. i've been defending the decision to start safe in order to go buckwild in 8 and 9 but let's face it, if there is a criticism there it is. everything else just sounds like a bunch of entitlement and latent misogyny and racism. she beat kylo because he was never that tight to begin with. smoke n mirrors. his training under luke was stunted early, he clearly doesn't get much training from darth snookie who's basically focusing on surviving and other than killing two old unarmed men, is otherwise all about scaring people with a mask he doesn't need, an all black getup and thrashing a bunch of inanimate objects. the only cool thing he does the entire movie is stop a blaster shot but that isn't shocking because he's the superstar son of superstar heroes and has anakin blood coarsing through his veins. of course he's got raw power but he's also completely green. oh and he also go shot in the abdomen with a BOWCASTER THAT HAD BEEN LAUNCHING EVERYBODY ELSE. my point is: nobody wants the girl to beat up the boys and nobody wants a black dude to get the white girl (flaaaaaaame me lol) (filet me) AngelCityOutlaw, LuckyXIII and WillRock 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 5 minutes ago, zykO said: my point is: nobody wants the girl to beat up the boys and nobody wants a black dude to get the white girl (flaaaaaaame me lol) (filet me) Honestly, Daisy Ridley could beat me up any day. I'm pretty sure she friend-zoned Finn, though. Didn't she refer to him as "my friend" as she kissed him on the forehead upon leaving? While he was unconscious and unable to experience it? Damn. People talk about Link, but Finn traveled across the galaxy to other planets, including a giant, laser-weapon planet and winds up in a coma to rescue Rey and he got "Thanks, buddy! We'll hang out again some day." zykO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJT Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 17 minutes ago, zykO said: she beat kylo because he was never that tight to begin with. preach. zykO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Damned Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Wait, people are still bitching about that? Is it still the same self-proclaimed super-fans that have seen all the movies at least 10 times each, but refuse to see TFA more than five times because it's the worst one of all? Fuck the fan base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slimy Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 41 minutes ago, zykO said: the thing that's driving everybody up the wall isn't that TFA suddenly has illogical nonsense that couldn't happen in any universe we know (i find it amusing that people complain about physics in a SW film...) : it's just that subconsciously they're just pissed off the black dude has a crush on the androgenous looking chick who just wooped up the dude they wrongly thought was a sith lord. I liked TFA, but I feel obligated to point out that this is embarrassingly obvious bulverism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zykO Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, AngelCityOutlaw said: Honestly, Daisy Ridley could beat me up any day. I'm pretty sure she friend-zoned Finn, though. Didn't she refer to him as "my friend" as she kissed him on the forehead upon leaving? While he was unconscious and unable to experience it? Damn. People talk about Link, but Finn traveled across the galaxy to other planets, including a giant, laser-weapon planet and winds up in a coma to rescue Rey and he got "Thanks, buddy! We'll hang out again some day." 1 totally friend-zoned but that's because she's a MARY SUE JEDI AND CELIBATE lol or something. Finn? dagnabit! 50 minutes ago, The Damned said: Fuck the fan base. i tell it to whoever will hear me: fan expectations ruined star wars. it's become so unhealthy, there are fools petitioning to have Lucas return to "save" star wars when those are the same people that drove him off to begin with lol damned if you do, damned if you don't. it is no surprise Lucas told us all to fuck off fuck the fan base, indeed. 30 minutes ago, Slimy said: I liked TFA, but I feel obligated to point out that this is embarrassingly obvious bulverism. lol well i wasn't that serious but come on, pullin the bulverism card is a copout; the opinions i'm criticizing are just as presumptuous of their correctness as my own. it's moot. beyond that, it's still very much also a real observation and not just something i made up to have something to say. people are complaining about those things and while they are most likely the minority, they do exist. whether or not the overt diversification of the cast is something that deserves to be criticized negatively for making a conscious effort to break from the white male protagonist formula is going to be hotly debated every time they cast a woman as a jedi superstar or an x-wing pilot or a brotha as a stormtrooper. nevermind that there was a woman piloting a naboo fighter in the attack on the trade federation's command ship in TPM. nevermind that there are countless women in the air force. these things are brought up usually because TROLLS but also because there are a lot of idiots in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillRock Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, The Damned said: Fuck the fan base. I actually saw a fan petition to bring back George Lucas to direct the next film. Not kidding. Yeah i'm not taking any criticisms seriously anymore. zykO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I'd sign a petition to bring Abrams back to the director's chair for VIII WillRock and zykO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 1 minute ago, AngelCityOutlaw said: I'd sign a petition to bring Abrams back to the director's chair for VIII I actually prefer if he didn't; I think he did a great job re-establishing the atmosphere and tone of Star Wars saga films (though now my opinion has shifted to saying some more of the prequels' strengths should've been capitalized on too, there was a lot of cool stuff) and now it's time for someone else to do something original with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malaki-LEGEND.sys Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 The biggest problem with Rey is that, at least initially with Episode VII, she's essentially Luke Skywalker and Han Solo all in one, what with her being a pretty strong force-sensitive on top of essentially owning the Millenium Falcon. I don't feel like I'm able to articulate this point very well, but there has to be SOME kind of limit to characters or else those adolescent power fantasy accusations start rolling in. And it was just as bad with Anakin not only being the chosen one, but also having built 3PO and several other attributes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slimy Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 53 minutes ago, zykO said: lol well i wasn't that serious but come on, pullin the bulverism card is a copout; the opinions i'm criticizing are just as presumptuous of their correctness as my own. it's moot. It's bulverism because you're pinning their reasons for disliking TFA on rascism/sexism, rather than addressing any actual arguments. But, good to know you weren't completely serious. Also - to anyone who would say otherwise - the stormtroopers haven't been clones since the prequels, (they'd all be 60 years old,) so of course they're going to be a mixed bag of races. Malaki-LEGEND.sys 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 28 minutes ago, Slimy said: Also - to anyone who would say otherwise - the stormtroopers haven't been clones since the prequels, (they'd all be 60 years old,) so of course they're going to be a mixed bag of races. It's stated very clearly in the TFA movie that the Stormtroopers are clones and that Finn's division is unique. It's a conversation between Ren and Hux (or other First Order commander?) where he's grilling him for using a real human instead of just getting clones like everyone else. 31 minutes ago, Malaki-LEGEND.sys said: The biggest problem with Rey is that, at least initially with Episode VII, she's essentially Luke Skywalker and Han Solo all in one, what with her being a pretty strong force-sensitive on top of essentially owning the Millenium Falcon. I don't feel like I'm able to articulate this point very well, but there has to be SOME kind of limit to characters or else those adolescent power fantasy accusations start rolling in. And it was just as bad with Anakin not only being the chosen one, but also having built 3PO and several other attributes. Writing characters is about balance. If your character is super strong, you balance it by giving super weakness somewhere. "She's really strong, but..." I think balancing outward ability and strength with internal instability and crippling motivation more than suffices. I mean, that's basically why Luke Skywalker was a good character despite his "power fantasy"-esque abilities (because he didn't have the attitude to take advantage of it until things got real bad). Similar, arguably more intense balance was done to Anakin Skywalker by making him susceptible to attachment and the dark side, rendering his super power a bad thing once he turned. I think it's actually least strongest with Rey, since all of the attempts at balance never really costed her anything like it did Luke and Anakin. The only dire loss in the movie was Han Solo, but his death wasn't really a result of her actions. Losing him wasn't paying for her strength, because he didn't die out of her negligence (or any other hidden facet of super strength type deals). But I don't see that as much of a problem, since I don't think she needs balance, because she's not really absurdly strong, at all. She beats Kylo when he's incredibly disadvantaged, she's good at piloting ships, and she can use a pittance of the Force for what, at this point, seems like obvious reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zykO Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, Malaki-LEGEND.sys said: The biggest problem with Rey is that, at least initially with Episode VII, she's essentially Luke Skywalker and Han Solo all in one, what with her being a pretty strong force-sensitive on top of essentially owning the Millenium Falcon. I don't feel like I'm able to articulate this point very well, but there has to be SOME kind of limit to characters or else those adolescent power fantasy accusations start rolling in. And it was just as bad with Anakin not only being the chosen one, but also having built 3PO and several other attributes. well that's the whole mary sue argument that many folks are making; that her arc is stunted because she's ready-made badass that hasn't appeared to have faced any real adversity or challenge before triumphing at the end over the villain at least for me, i think of it like i do with prospects in sports. there are players with a low floor but high ceiling and they are the high risk, high reward; anakin and luke were more or less this type of prospect. rey (much like obi wan) is the type of prospect that is safe; their floor is much higher but their ceiling is also just as much lower. it's just possible that's what rey is and that actually contrasts kinda nicely with both anakin (who failed), luke (who, at this point, you can say also failed), and even ben solo (who's failing). so she doesn't necessarily have to be a bad protagonisht per se; she can also be a different one anakin on the other hand, was legit OP. kid balled OUT in the phantom menace, no joke. he could have kick maul's ass probably lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slimy Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 1 minute ago, Neblix said: It's stated very clearly in the TFA movie that the Stormtroopers are clones and that Finn's division is unique. It's a conversation between Ren and Hux (or other First Order commander?) where he's grilling him for using a real human instead of just getting clones like everyone else. Sorry then, they weren't clones in the original trilogy, and I assumed it was the same in TFA with more brainwashing involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zykO Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 1 minute ago, Neblix said: It's stated very clearly in the TFA movie that the Stormtroopers are clones and that Finn's division is unique. It's a conversation between Ren and Hux (or other First Order commander?) where he's grilling him for using a real human instead of just getting clones like everyone else. not exactly; ren taunts hux by criticizing his stormtroopers for their failure (failure to secure the map and finn's defection) by suggesting clones could do the job much better (an archaic notion no doubt 60-80 years after they were last used as slimy pointed out. ren's just talkin shit 5 minutes ago, Slimy said: It's bulverism because you're pinning their reasons for disliking TFA on rascism/sexism, rather than addressing any actual arguments. But, good to know you weren't completely serious. 2 sure but invoking "bulverism" is set aside for serious discussions lol we're bantering on about star wars on the ocr forums anyway, all i meant to say was that there are people who do dislike TFA on account of disney's purported obsession with pushing their PC agenda... which may or may not be a the actual reality (i'm not kathleen kennedy; though i do wish i was frank marshall lol). i don't know and frankly i don't care lol as long as i enjoy the characters, i'd care less what they appear as. i didn't mean to assume anybody's motive, only referring to observed complaints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zykO Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 5 minutes ago, Slimy said: Sorry then, they weren't clones in the original trilogy, and I assumed it was the same in TFA with more brainwashing involved. nah, you were right; there are no clones in the first order Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyXIII Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 This. Oh - and hi, I'm Cliff and I'm exceedingly late to this party. On 12/19/2015 at 4:08 AM, Neblix said: I've been to the other side of this whole critical analysis thing and it often devolves into exaggerating big problems out of small annoyances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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