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So, because you fail to see the lasting appeal in Wii Sports, you assume there is none.

Interesting.

How is it possible that someone who comes off as trying to sound educated can make the biggest mistake of all: assuming his perception is the right one?

You know, I have played pretty much every console ever. I have tried many games, more than I can remember.

The simplicity in Wii Sports is a beautiful thing. If you fail to see it, its your loss. You will never be happy if you cannot find happiness in simplicity.

Again you take my words out of context. I occasionally still play Wii sports but there is just a point where it is not fulfilling anymore.

My point was that if non-gaming people, who suddenly got hyped into buying a Wii (not a bad thing per se) don't tap into the "hardcore" library at some point, I'm sure they will get bored with these types of games. I just don't think it's worth all that money to only have a Wii with Wii Sports and maybe one or two other non-game games, and most certainly won't help Nintendo stay alive.

I'm not trying to sound "educated", but I would also not slice on a topic I don't know anything about. (Believe me, OCRemix cured me of that for good)

It's not even about my perception being the right one, but since I have something to compare to, I am to a certain extent proud of my perception.

Anyway, it is simple facts that I stated. human nature and all, psychology and not to mention marketing, which by funny coincidence I actually do study.

As for Wii Sports simplicity; I do think it is beautiful yes, but such a game alone would not be fullfilling to a non-gamer crowd. Especially not for the lifetime of a gaming generation and you know it.

As for sounding like an ass or whatever; of course I know I'm being somewhat judgmental but I have my life experience to back up my views, it's what makes me an individual, and just because I view the majority of people the way I do, it doesn't mean I'm a horrible person, or hate everyone else.

Again, it's just simple facts. Look at commercials, advertising: look at the way they treat "us" and talk to us like "we're" some kind of idiot.

Look at how it's working too; how else could ridicilous ringtones be selling? Or toothbrushes with all the extra bullshit, or electric razors?

But maybe you just feel offended or something I don't know. It's not like I said you're some moron for liking Wii Sports, or anyone really.

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The enjoyment that I get out of the Wii everyday has more than warranted my 250 + tax purchase. And anyone complaining about a lack of titles won't be doing so within a week, if they have any sense of what's going on around them. In the meantime, chill out and download Shining Force - that will keep you busy until the horde of awesome games come in during the next few months and onward.

I haven't enjoyed a new console so much since the SNES. Yes, there are limitations to the graphics and a lot of the third party games are pathetic cash-ins, but it doesn't matter (every console has those, face it). It's an amazing console. That's all there is to it. Every system has its faults, and Wii is no exception, but it's great.

The whole argument about Nintendo abandoning the hardcore gamer is a ridiculous illusion. Just because Ninty releases Brain Age, Wii Sports, and Wii fit, people start having a heart attack and ignore the fact that the shooters, RPGs and other games are getting ready to pour in. Third parties are finally finishing up some major titles, and Nintendo's already got several of their monster titles coming out soon, starting next week with Metroid Prime 3. The Wii's library is beginning to look like that of the DS - awesome, fun, and full of variety.

Also, if you don't own a Wii, then don't label it as a gimmicky system, because you don't know what the you are talking about and therefore don't have much credence for pushing your opinion. I don't sit around and bitch about a PS3 or 360, because I don't have them.

If Wii's such a gimmicky fad, then why have I been playing it for 6 months as if I've just discovered masturbation?

Because I'm mediocre? This must mean that you're advanced or far beyond the comprehension and understanding of a Nintendo fan. There must be something that makes you special. Why don't you share it with us. We're anxious to know what makes you so exceptional, so we can be cool and above all common logic like yourself.

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Not to butt in, but I think it's worth pointing out that Nintendo hardly needs help staying alive right now, what with how they've been making nothing but profit for the past several console generations.

Fair enough. Though mind you that a lot of that money came from loyal gamers, and the issue of attracting non-gamers wasn't really an issue then.

of course the market was just totally different back then anyway, as a whole.

The enjoyment that I get out of the Wii everyday has more than warranted my 250 + tax purchase. And anyone complaining about a lack of titles won't be doing so within a week, if they have any sense of what's going on around them. In the meantime, chill out and download Shining Force - that will keep you busy until the horde of awesome games come in during the next few months and onward.

I haven't enjoyed a new console so much since the SNES. Yes, there are limitations to the graphics and a lot of the third party games are pathetic cash-ins, but it doesn't matter (every console has those, face it). It's an amazing console. That's all there is to it. Every system has its faults, and Wii is no exception, but it's great.

The whole argument about Nintendo abandoning the hardcore gamer is a ridiculous illusion. Just because Ninty releases Brain Age, Wii Sports, and Wii fit, people start having a heart attack and ignore the fact that the shooters, RPGs and other games are getting ready to pour in. Third parties are finally finishing up some major titles, and Nintendo's already got several of their monster titles coming out soon, starting next week with Metroid Prime 3. The Wii's library is beginning to look like that of the DS - awesome, fun, and full of variety.

Also, if you don't own a Wii, then don't label it as a gimmicky system, because you don't know what the you are talking about and therefore don't have much credence for pushing your opinion. I don't sit around and bitch about a PS3 or 360, because I don't have them.

If Wii's such a gimmicky fad, then why have I been playing it for 6 months as if I've just discovered masturbation?

Because I'm mediocre? This must mean that you're advanced or far beyond the comprehension and understanding of a Nintendo fan. There must be something that makes you special. Why don't you share it with us. We're anxious to know what makes you so exceptional, so we can be cool and above all common logic like yourself.

Is that comment aimed at me? Because I can entirely destroy your petty attack by saying I have been a loyal Nintendo follower since the SNES era.

I was just expressing my views on the market and the non-gamer community.

I have no problem with non-game games at all as long as the non-gaming people eventually also try out the more hardcore games, ensuring their support for a few more years and thus proving the Wii is not a fad like SOMEONE ELSE said.

I don't know where you get the idea that I'm a PS3/Xbox owner/fanboy/whatever. But that's why I asked if your comment really was aimed at me...

You guys are getting too worked up. I'm just trying to have a good discussion and so far, all I get is name calling and people trying to twist my words into something else.

If you look at it through objective goggles you'll know there is some truth in my views.

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Wii has officially outsold the 360. Not by much, but it did it in less than a year.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/retailed/wii-passes-xbox-360-in-worldwide-sales-292442.php

Wow. So much for being a fad, huh? I guess this means, with such a large user base and a high sales rate, that the Wii is going to be around for a while. Which in turn, means that more developers are going to see potential sales, which means more games for us.

Yay!

I'm wondering where the other .4% is. Is there a mysterious 4th console hidden from the masses?

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Not to butt in, but I think it's worth pointing out that Nintendo hardly needs help staying alive right now, what with how they've been making nothing but profit for the past several console generations.

Pretty much. I mean, even if the Wii flopped in sales this generation, Nintendo has so much money that it would probably just be like falling off of a bike. They would just need to get back on and ride again.

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Is that comment aimed at me? Because I can entirely destroy your petty attack by saying I have been a loyal Nintendo follower since the SNES era.

I was just expressing my views on the market and the non-gamer community.

I have no problem with non-game games at all as long as the non-gaming people eventually also try out the more hardcore games, ensuring their support for a few more years and thus proving the Wii is not a fad like SOMEONE ELSE said.

I don't know where you get the idea that I'm a PS3/Xbox owner/fanboy/whatever. But that's why I asked if your comment really was aimed at me...

Not of all of it is aimed at you - The 'mediocre' part is the part aimed at you, but obviously I forgot to spell that out. The rest if for various naysayers around the world and anyone interested.

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Eh, I don't see why the Wii is considered a fad.

That said, I have to say that I spend most of my time on my PS3 these days, with Super Stardust HD and various PS2 RPGs I've missed out on. I have loads of current gen games here for all three consoles that I could be playing, yet I keep going back to the PS2 games and Fire Emblem for Gamecube (only started it recently).

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Eh, I don't see why the Wii is considered a fad.

That said, I have to say that I spend most of my time on my PS3 these days, with Super Stardust HD and various PS2 RPGs I've missed out on. I have loads of current gen games here for all three consoles that I could be playing, yet I keep going back to the PS2 games and Fire Emblem for Gamecube (only started it recently).

To say there is no game worth playing on any given established system, is foolish.

But, it amounts to having to decide if it's worth the buy-in price to play it. I'm sure there's going to be tons of great games to play on PS3, but until there's some big changes at Sony, and an even bigger price drop, I personally won't be getting one, and neither will a lot of other people, for either or both of those reasons.

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To say there is no game worth playing on any given established system, is foolish.

But, it amounts to having to decide if it's worth the buy-in price to play it. I'm sure there's going to be tons of great games to play on PS3, but until there's some big changes at Sony, and an even bigger price drop, I personally won't be getting one, and neither will a lot of other people, for either or both of those reasons.

I wasn't saying that at all. I was just saying that for the most part I've been playing games of the previous gen. I have lots of games here that I'd love to play at some point, like Super Paper Mario, Motorstorm, Ninja Gaiden Sigma, and lots of others, but it's just that right now I'm leaning more towards playing games that I've missed out on. For example, all my non-handheld gaming this summer has been on PS2 games, namely Rogue Galaxy and Dragon Quest VIII.

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Like many, I too am sick and tried of all the Nintendo haters, naysayers, and etc. For those that feel Nintendo is ignoring the hardcore, your dead wrong. This holiday's lineup is more than enough proof. Also this bull crap that they may be offering hardcore titles but only advertise to the casual and will eventually stop marketing to the hardcore is just plain stupid. Nintendo is smart. The reason why they are focusing most of their advertising and marketing towards the casual is because the casual is still a relatively new demographic. Their are still millions of people that are part of the casual market and still may not know about the Wii or DS.

However, I'm sure many would agree the defition of a "hardcore" gamer is a person whos primary interest is video games. If your primary interest is video games, than don't you think you would already know what your intrested in, already know what type of games you like, and possibily know when they will be avialable. Nintendo doesn't market much to the hardcore because they don't really need too. Most will still go out and buy their stuff just because their loyal fans. That demographic is already there in place. Remeber, they are trying to expand the audience. Also this crap about no new hardcore games being shown by nintendo is also stupid. Since when has Nintendo been free and open about what they got indevelopment. They like to keep their projects secret and quiet. Just because you haven't seen any evidence that they exsist doesn't mean they don't.

Bottom-line, Nintendo knows what their doing. I believe Nintendo is truely trying to take the real next step in the gaming industry by expanding the audience and by changing the way we play play and view videogames. Graphics and the hardcore will only take you so far these days. Nintendo is thinking ahead, looking beyond graphics and the current demographic.

Besides, this agruement can get stupid at times. Their is really just one solution despite what everyone says or argues. If you don't like Nintendo's strategy, you don't like simple games, you don't like last-gen graphics and etc. just simply don't buy a Wii. If you love what Nintendo is doing, you love the games and etc. then buy a Wii. Just be happy with your choice. I know I'm really glad to be a Wii owner right now. But if Wii is not for you, thats fine. Thats why we have choices.

Sorry about the huge rant but it seemed like the current topic, with the news of Wii surpassing 360.

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Eh, I don't see why the Wii is considered a fad.

That said, I have to say that I spend most of my time on my PS3 these days, with Super Stardust HD and various PS2 RPGs I've missed out on. I have loads of current gen games here for all three consoles that I could be playing, yet I keep going back to the PS2 games and Fire Emblem for Gamecube (only started it recently).

Oh man, FE:PoR was a lot of fun. It ate my life last yr, mainly cuz I'd restart a mission if someone died and I always left the animations on (until the 2nd to last missions...those got too long already, even without animations) :-P.

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Nintendo ditching "Hardcore Gaming" for "Casual Gaming" is paranoid nonsense perpetrated by the spoiled brats of the gaming world who have to have everything catered to their own tastes and don't like sharing their toys. /generalization

Sure, I'm waiting to see a Metroid commercial on TV and feel NOA's ad department needs to get on the ball here, but I also have no problems with their heavy focus on advertising casual games. If you actually stop to think about it for a second, you'll see why this is a necessary focus.

Disclaimer: I'm about to use words relating to maturity and infancy. I am not in any way referring to game ratings or the ages of individuals. I'm talking about markets here.

Demographically, the mainstream or "hardcore" audience has matured. It is established and it's not going anywhere.

In the console world, the casual demographic is in its infancy and hardly established at all.

Who needs more attention and nurture to grow strong, a baby or an adult?

That is why casual gaming is getting the focus that it is. It needs it to grow and become established. This is not in any way a threat to mainstream gaming, it is simply an expansion of the market. When the market reaches equilibrium, the attention doled out to casual or mainstream games will even out.

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I wasn't saying that at all. I was just saying that for the most part I've been playing games of the previous gen. I have lots of games here that I'd love to play at some point, like Super Paper Mario, Motorstorm, Ninja Gaiden Sigma, and lots of others, but it's just that right now I'm leaning more towards playing games that I've missed out on. For example, all my non-handheld gaming this summer has been on PS2 games, namely Rogue Galaxy and Dragon Quest VIII.

I know you weren't saying that, I was just cutting to the chase. A lot of people think "OMG! That system has -nothing- at all to play on it! LOLZ!", but that's utter trash. Unless it's nGage. Then it really doesn't, does it?

And I agree.. BC is a great tool this generation. Especially in favor of Nintendo and MS, because a lot of people may not have played the games last generation. Unfortunately, of the 3 in the market, only Nintendo got it right(due to the very way the hardware is designed). Having the entire back library of titles available, for a VERY good price(find a pawn shop or something, and you could probably pick 'em up for 5 bucks each.. or a game store trying to clear out titles, might have sales. One up here has one, 25 GC games for $260).

Still some games I'm looking for, cheap. Like Zelda:tWW and MP2:Echoes.

Eventually, I'll get an X360 and work on the catalog of Xbox 1 titles as well.

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Demographically, the mainstream or "hardcore" audience has matured. It is established and it's not going anywhere.

In the console world, the casual demographic is in its infancy and hardly established at all.

Who needs more attention and nurture to grow strong, a baby or an adult?

Blue water Red water.

I wish I could look for the interview but someone at Nintendo, I think it was the Japanese president, explained their strategy this generation with a nice metaphor:

The gaming market is like oceans. The companies are sharks. Last gen, all the companies were trying to find food in water that was already filled with blood. Basically, the companies had one market and they had to compete to get it.

(A similar thing happened with all the Pong clones before. All the companies were trying to get a share of the Pong market. That market was good for one or two companies, but when more tried to get in, not only were they committing corporate suicide by trying to get in a market that was saturated, they actually also destroyed the market for other companies. When there is too much offer for the demand, the companies had to lower prices which meant cutting corners. Last gen, this happened as well, and while it does not seem like it, this could have led to a crash again.)

What Nintendo did was "find a new sea that had no blood in it." They saw a new possible market and they went for it. This allowed them to get the ball rolling with the Wii, which, unlike the PS3 and 360, is not sold at a loss.

(Where Microsoft and Sony lost 20 to 100$ per console sold, Nintendo made a profit of 10-50$. (Estimates, don't quote me on that.) So, assuming all the companies only sold 1 million units, nintendo would be raking in a profit of at least 10 000 000$ where Sony and Microsoft could have lost at least 20 000 000$. So if each company made a similar profit (25$) on a game, Sony and Microsoft would have to sell 1 200 000 games to be at the level Nintendo was with the consoles alone. This means that they would have to over pass Nintendo by over 1.2 million games to have a chance at reaching the same profit level. Now the market is nowhere there. And with Sony losing almost 100$ per system, they will not reach profitability for a while. At 25$ per game with a 100$ loss on the console, Sony has to sell 4 games per console to break even. At 25$ per game and 50$ profit per console, Nintendo at that point has a profit of 150$.)

The blue water philosophy seems to have paid off big time, because by not trying to steal gamers but by finding new ones, they introduced new people to the market, and by being alone in that market, they gained control over it. At the same time, gamers of the previous gens have realized that the Wii is good. This is the part that is hurting Sony and Microsoft. Instead of going X-box ->360, they went X-Box -> Wii. That is just icing on the cake.

At this point, Nintendo could survive simply using its handheld department, and with gaining the console upperhand, they just ensured that we would get at least 3 more generations of consoles from them (concidering the fact that they did the N64 and Gamecube while they were losing.) By then, they will need to find yet another market since the others will follow. (Sony tried with the 6-axis, but they failed to see what was the idea behind the Wiimote and they did not target a new demographic.)

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Unfortunately, of the 3 in the market, only Nintendo got it right(due to the very way the hardware is designed).

I just wish they'd update the firmware so that it doesn't totally shut off the Wii hardware. I dislike it that when I play a GC game, I have to turn off the Wii and back on in order to get back to the main channels menu. It's only a minor annoyance, really, but it's annoying nevertheless.

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I doubt Nintendo's catering to the casual market is singlehandedly driving Wii sales. Fact is Nintendo created a low budget console experience with a value on accessibility and interface. The expanded audience gamer demographic responds especially well to that value, so that's how Nintendo's promoting their image at the moment. However, that doesn't mean Nintendo takes their old fanbase for granted if the Fall 2007 game lineup is any indication.

Really it comes down to this: long time gamers have been feed "game consoles need better graphics to warrant a purchase" and many are unwilling to adopt out of skepticism, leaving the expanded audience to carry Wii's hype and marketing image. Nintendo knows and loves us; the problem is we're not showing enough support.

Hehe I like that conclusion. :razz:

Um. You basically said again that casual-gamer-friendly aspect of the Wii pretty much made it the most popular. It didn't go the route of hardcore gamers first like the 360 and PS3 obviously were aiming for. They worked from the top and tried to get the rest. Nintendo worked for the rest and worked upward. Look at a lot of the games in the first year, and 'mediocre' is something I could agree for the most part. Yes, the motion sensor is an excellent and innovative feature, but only a handful of companies ever put it to good use and even less committed to full length games we were accustomed to in the PS2 era. But they are coming because Nintendo has been making a point to go from the mini-games to novelties like Wii Sports then work up to the RPGs and all the big games later on.

The 360 and PS3's strategy was to start from epic games then get the casual gamers in the middle and end of their console lives.

Like many, I too am sick and tried of all the Nintendo haters, naysayers, and etc. For those that feel Nintendo is ignoring the hardcore, your dead wrong. This holiday's lineup is more than enough proof. Also this bull crap that they may be offering hardcore titles but only advertise to the casual and will eventually stop marketing to the hardcore is just plain stupid. Nintendo is smart. The reason why they are focusing most of their advertising and marketing towards the casual is because the casual is still a relatively new demographic. Their are still millions of people that are part of the casual market and still may not know about the Wii or DS.

Casual gamers were never a new demographic. Even in the Atari days, it was all about the casual gamers. In the Arcade era, casual gamers basically ruled the landscape. Also, look at the PS2 and Xbox and Gamecube and they all were going after the casual gamers too. And their prices were VERY reasonable for them and the sales proved it (though the lack of exclusive 3rd parties hurt Gamecube). Look at 360 and PS3 and they were trying to make premium games for established gamers and Wii simply did the opposite and went for the profit and casual gamers. It's not about "neglecting" hardcore gamers as it is to focus their energy otherwise. I agree that they never took hardcore gamers out of the picture, but that was not their core strategy. Look at 360 and PS3 and their heavy emphasis on complex epics and longtime sequels that mostly only gamers would know about and anticipate.

Really. Can you sell Mass Effect or Mario Party the same way? Of course not. Totally different demographics. It is not about neglecting one or another as it is simply selling the games for what they are.

Also, I don't think the bottom line of profits in the consoles really matter for the gamers all that much this generation. Microsoft has cash to burn and Sony, though ailing financially, still have billions to burn in their gaming division and they could most probably sustain the PS3's lifespan. And we know fully that all three consoles will have their share of 3rd party titles (and it's obvious by now that the 1st parties for MS/Sony/Nintendo are almost universally excellent this generation) and it's not a matter of who's even "winning" what anymore. All three are pretty competitive in their own right except for the PS3 which is still facing a lot of uphill battles until all the big titles come out.

I just hope that the next console generation, Microsoft and Sony at least try to emulate the innovative, cost cutting and profit-friendly way if that's what they need to sustain themselves. Nintendo will always be Nintendo and even if they did not have the 3rd party, it won't matter since their 1st party was always their main attraction since the N64 years anyway.

That is why casual gaming is getting the focus that it is. It needs it to grow and become established. This is not in any way a threat to mainstream gaming, it is simply an expansion of the market. When the market reaches equilibrium, the attention doled out to casual or mainstream games will even out.

I'd say it'd only be a threat if every game developer stops making the epics, the multi-million dollar projects, the ambitious sequels and etc all for profit's sakes. We already know what happened to Sega for trying to cater to a new, 'hip' and profitable market of churning out useless sequels in the last few years. That is only the worst example. At least they were smart to never mess around with the Virtua Fighter series... except for their insane Virtua Fighter RPG idea.

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Apparently today's MP3 videos are the last (no more transparent slots, and the message at the bottom only says "Metroid Prime 3 in Stores August 28th!" The Dark Samus video proposes a very interesting, um... cooperation, while the Mine Fight really makes me itch to play this. Also, it seems like the Jump/Spring Ball will be making an appearance, as when Samus first goes into Morph Ball mode she appears to jump instantly without laying bombs at points. Anyone else see that?

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Sad thing about the PS3 is that it has some good titles. Just most people have a hard time plunking down $550-650 on a console. But that's a tangential.

I think the Wii's offering is pretty damn solid for the first year. Most consoles, if not all others, have far worse lineups in their first year, and it's impressive that Nintendo was able to support it so well, something that generally isn't done.

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Sad thing about the PS3 is that it has some good titles. Just most people have a hard time plunking down $550-650 on a console.

This is precisely why big third party titles are going to go multiplatform or 360 exclusive. No one gives a shit how good a game is if you have to spend that much to play it. If you spent money on a Wii, 360 or hell, even upgraded some stuff in your PC, you'd still have money left over to buy games/controllers.

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Sad thing about the PS3 is that it has some good titles. Just most people have a hard time plunking down $550-650 on a console.

That's the truth for me. I have a PS2 amidst my various Nintendo consoles and there are a few franchises I really like that have always been Sony exclusives, like Ratchet and Clank for example. I'm also a big fan of Devil May Cry, but Capcom has thus far insisted on keeping the series exclusively on Playstation. Maybe that will finally change this console generation. I think it would do very well on Wii. Hopefully people will give the small budget hack and slash Dragon Blade a chance (assuming it isn't terrible). If that one does well then Capcom would be out of excuses.

Anyway, I refuse to pay more than $300 for a game console. I don't care how cutting edge it is. I want it for games, not to hang on my wall like some tech trophy. More than $300 is too much, no matter what games it has or how shiny its graphics are.

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