ASK A JUDGE: While we're busy NOT voting - your questions, we want 'em

[zircon]

[rant]

It is very interesting to see people think of chiptunes as a genre. It's more of an instrument choice, or subset of instruments. It's like "strings" or "percussion" as a term, not a genre, as you can have chiptunes that are metal, classical, VGM, funk, prog, whatever.

The whole discussion of "limiting yourself" with chiptunes can be as easily applied to any other genre, if it's gonna be lumped in with them. With metal, you're adhering to a specific sound and won't really stray from it, unless you are willing to be accused of not making a song that's 100% metal, and this could be true of other genres. As for the instrument part and it being "lo-fi," I'd say you have to judge it within its own standards. For example, if you have a song that's entirely a piano piece, the author is probably limiting themselves to something that can be played with two hands by a single person, and no other instruments cuts down on what they can do as well. If a piano song sounds just like a piano in real life, it's "quality," but if a chiptune sounds like something an actual 8-bit machine could spit out, it's "total lack of production," "terrible sound quality," and "limiting creativity."

Yeah I know this isn't gonna change anything, and I've probably wasted my time, but I'm sick of the close-mindedness here that's just the de facto standard.

[/rant]

tl;dr: meh

You know, I anticipated this kind of response and did my very best to avoid it by saying "if that's the right word for them" Yes, I understand (along with the rest of the judges) that chiptunes can be written in a variety of styles, as you said. Much like how solo piano music can be jazz, classical, blues, etc. My point was that we don't cut people any slack if they choose a more limiting production style, genre, whatever - and you can't argue that chiptunes are inherently limiting (polyphony and available timbres.) That limitation also means that chiptune artists tend to gravitate toward a particular style (dance/electronica) though obviously there are exceptions.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that we're "closed-minded", though. Everyone on the staff loves chiptunes. Most if not all of us have gone to at least several live chiptune shows. We love listening to C64 and NES soundtracks. But we can't make a special exception in our standards for any style or genre. GrayLightning argued this vehemently with the following example. What if someone submitted a remix in "yoga style" which is just banging two rocks together with someone humming on top? Should we say that we have to evaluate that remix only within the bounds of its own style? Should we do that with EVERY style? What if someone submitted a Venetian Blinds style remix at 999bpm with almost all distortion and white noise throughout? That's a legitimate genre, but should we go easy on it because that's what all the songs in the genre sound like?

Even if you disagree with our position (that we don't judge chiptunes within their genre), don't call us closed-minded. We've discussed the topic internally at GREAT length and there was never a complete consensus one way or the other. The one thing we did agree on is that we all enjoy chiptunes of many kinds by many artists, and that even if we don't tend to post them here, that doesn't mean they're bad music.

Edited September 6, 2010 by zircon

[djpretzel]

I'd like to echo what zircon said, pretty much 100%, and add the following:

What we're *trying* to avoid with our standards is any "genre" which can't meet a basic level of complexity, effort, and interpretation. Sorry, but a chiptune that uses nothing but basic tones and applies no modulation or processing will have a very hard time meeting our production standards. I'd also argue that such a chiptune wouldn't be particularly strong even within its genre, as people can do some QUITE amazing things. Ultimately, however, for reverb, EQ, and a whole host of other things that wouldn't be allowed in a STRICT chiptune (i.e. a completely unprocessed NSF>WAV output, for example), you need to bend the rules a bit.

That's the only point we're making, and it's genre-neutral: we want attention paid to both arrangement AND production. We've got metal, jazz, classical, rock, hip-hop, electronica, and tons of other genres already on the site, so watch who you're calling closed-minded. There's a difference between being closed-minded and simply having a framework for evaluation.

How many times do we have to repeat the above, or some variation of the above, before it is digested?

[Nase]

Hm. Lemme speak my mind here, at the risk of beating a dead horse...

Really good (authentic) chiptunes, in my opinion, always have really good production. That's because production and arrangement are very closely tied together when making a chiptune. For example, you can't just apply EQ when the sound is too muddy or too thin. You cannot really add to the fullness of a track with reverb or other sound enhancing fx. You have to expand on the arrangement or choose different waveforms and such.

Disclaimer: I don't mind the panel's policy regarding chiptunes. It's ok with me that they don't consider chiptunes to have sufficient production value in most cases.

What I don't agree with is the notion that said production value can be judged completely objectively.

See, I like fat analogue basses. I like the rich tone of a grand piano, i like a good dynamic string section and powerful rumbling brass.

I also like raw square and noise waves put together in a compelling fashion.

I cannot possibly make a distinction regarding sound quality. All of the above just sound awesome to me when they're pulled off competently.

I cannot fault the production of a perfect chiptune, and that isn't primarily because I marvel at what has been done with the limited resources available, it is because it sounds fucking awesome to me, period.

So yes indeed, I think the argument boils down to a different level of appreciation of music just consisting of basic waveforms. Of course that doesn't mean that the panel/djp don't appreciate chiptunes, they just think that their technical limitations result in a natural huge disadvantage when it comes to production. And that's perfectly ok, it's pretzel's site.

In the end though, what really constitutes good production?

i'd say it means nothing else than 'make it sound awesome. let the arrangement shine'.

in my opinion, really good chiptunes achieve that. others are free to disagree.

I dunno, why not embrace the simple fact that judging music inherently requires some level of subjectivity and move on? relentlessly pointing to standards and guidelines won't really settle this argument when it really is about different aesthetic sensibilities.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Nase

[Brandon Strader]

[Nase]

oh, so i did beat a dead horse indeed! thanks for illustrating that with a clever picture.

[KyleJCrb]

It's okay to ignore Oinkness.

[Archangel]

I have another question!

What is OCR's policy regarding the language used in a remix? First of all, do all the titles have to be in English? And if not, can a title contain special characters (like č, š, ž and so forth)?

Second of all, if the remix is a vocal arrangement, is it okay if it's not sung in English? The reason why I'm asking this is because I have quite a few friends who have very nice voices and would be more than willing to contribute to a nice arrangement, but their English pronunciation is not exactly flawless since English is not their first language. It would be a bummer if the judges (and the listeners) thought less of the song just because the pronunciation wasn't flawless.

Thanks in advance for your answer!

[DragonAvenger]

Pretty easy answers on this one. Titles can be in other languages: There is a Pokémon mix that is in Japanese if you check the 'To be Posted' list.

No problem on having songs in other languages. I know Jill(Pixietricks) sang a song in Japanese, and if I remember there is a song in French as well.

For both, it would probably be good to include a translation for us less-than-multi-language people. Other than that, shouldn't be an issue.

[Hemophiliac]

Fighting for Tomorrow is in latin.

[Brandon Strader]

There was Us Monkeys Together by Flickerfall >_>

It was in Mandarin I think.

[Nabeel Ansari]

I can't believe no one has mentioned Hyadain's Japanese mario remix... that's like the first thing that comes to mind.

[Fishy]

that's like the first thing that comes to my mind.

fixed

I think we've gathered that you can have any language for your mixes. We don't have to name every one that isn't English to answer the question :3.

[Nabeel Ansari]

fixed

I thought the "my" was implied.

My bad.

[Brandon Strader]

Why do there have to be such strict rules on the threads in Recruitment forum? What would it hurt to let people discuss the projects they're recruiting for?

[DragonAvenger]

It's one thing to recruit for a project, but when the thread starts to become the place that the project is being run, or seems to be run, that's when it's an issue. We want to keep things moving, as it were, in that particular forum so everyone's requests can get seen.

[Palpable]

To elaborate on what Deia said, the decision was made so that OCR staff could have more involvement in the projects the site officially supports. The one-thread projects are very hard to moderate and have the project evaluators assist with, and had a tendency to get started then abandoned. With the new model of using private project forums, we reward people for trying to work with us to make a project acceptable for OCR, and it's easier to make sure the project is moving along.

[Brandon Strader]

Ahh... FF1 project didn't get rewarded for trying to work with ya'll to get it acceptable for OCR. Larry said the 37 minutes worth of WIPs weren't refined enough.

I've got a different question! If a song is already posted to OCR, can it be included on a project album in the future? Like if a project were to spring up that covers a game that had a recent ocremix posted, could that ocremix be included on the album?

[Archangel]

I've got a different question! If a song is already posted to OCR, can it be included on a project album in the future? Like if a project were to spring up that covers a game that had a recent ocremix posted, could that ocremix be included on the album?

I'd like to know that too!

[anosou]

Ahh... FF1 project didn't get rewarded for trying to work with ya'll to get it acceptable for OCR. Larry said the 37 minutes worth of WIPs weren't refined enough.

I've got a different question! If a song is already posted to OCR, can it be included on a project album in the future? Like if a project were to spring up that covers a game that had a recent ocremix posted, could that ocremix be included on the album?

That's up to the project director. OCR has never run projects "themselves" as a site, it's always been a community effort with one or two people spear-heading the thing. If they okay it, it's okay I think?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Fishy]

Ahh... FF1 project didn't get rewarded for trying to work with ya'll to get it acceptable for OCR. Larry said the 37 minutes worth of WIPs weren't refined enough.

Don't be like that Brandon, you know why . From the standards: "While OCR site projects do not pass through the Judges Panel, we expect a certain level of quality with every release." The absolute minimum is at least 1/3rd should be post-able; that obviously wasn't the case with what he saw. Official projects still represent OCR and therefore do not get a free ride. This somewhat used to be the case, it isn't now.

I've got a different question! If a song is already posted to OCR, can it be included on a project album in the future? Like if a project were to spring up that covers a game that had a recent ocremix posted, could that ocremix be included on the album?

D'awwwww... We have no official stance on this. There have been cases where tracks have been released earlier as teasers, but never when projects have been started after a track was posted and appeared on anything. If the only reason you are adding an existing track is to push up the quality, we are unlikely to think highly of this. I'd say this is a case by case issue, but it's kinda missing the point of projects. We would be likely to dissuade it.

[Brandon Strader]

Don't be like that Brandon, you know why . From the standards: "While OCR site projects do not pass through the Judges Panel, we expect a certain level of quality with every release." The absolute minimum is at least 1/3rd should be post-able; that obviously wasn't the case with what he saw. Official projects still represent OCR and therefore do not get a free ride. This somewhat used to be the case, it isn't now.

Yeaaaaaaah that may have come across a little bitter. Sorry. But still... 1/3 of the WIPs have to be passable? I thought that was just for final remixes

D'awwwww... We have no official stance on this. There have been cases where tracks have been released earlier as teasers, but never when projects have been started after a track was posted and appeared on anything. If the only reason you are adding an existing track is to push up the quality, we are unlikely to think highly of this. I'd say this is a case by case issue, but it's kinda missing the point of projects. We would be likely to dissuade it.

I was thinking more along the lines of K.K. Setlist which is currently in a revival period but has had a couple songs posted. It would be cool to have them included on the (aborted) album for which they were originally made.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Brandon Strader

[anosou]

Yeaaaaaaah that may have come across a little bitter. Sorry. But still... 1/3 of the WIPs have to be passable? I thought that was just for final remixes

It is for final mixes. Nothing's stopping you from coming back with 1/3rd finished tracks that are passable.

[Palpable]

I was thinking more along the lines of K.K. Setlist which is currently in a revival period but has had a couple songs posted. It would be cool to have them included on the (aborted) album for which they were originally made.

I don't think this would be an issue, to have a couple previously posted tracks be on an album.

[DarkeSword]

You can have already-posted songs on albums; for example, Blue Skies Over Guardia was an OC ReMix long before Chrono Symphonic even started development.

It's nicer for listeners to get new music, but nobody's going to stop anyone from releasing a project with one or two already-posted remixes.

[Mirby]

That's good to know.

Another example that comes to mind is Koan of Drums.