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Cel Shaded done right, or how I learned to stop worrying and love the Wind Waker....


Toadofsky
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It's been a few years now, but I have to say it, I think I like the Wind Waker's style over Twilight Princess, and for that matter, even better than TP. Not that Twilight was a bad game, but it was so much different from the other Zelda games in terms of style and story. And it started much better combat. Yeah, the sailing left a lot to be desired, but I enjoyed it.

Sorry, to sound jaded, but what do you guys think of the Wind Waker these days? Indifferent, still enjoy it?

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i know you're going to get a lot of flaming replies to this post, but I wated to say I agree. WW's style is absolutely seamless and looks like a living cartoon, whereas TP had that detailed textured look which to me ended up looking pretty much like every other game out there.

I think WW and Okami really took game art to new levels, though WW in particular received TONS of negative feedback for it. Oh well, can't please everyone, can ya....

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I'm not a fan of the flat-colored, thick outline type of cel-shading. Around the same time Wind Waker was out a friend had been messing around with rendering in the Quake source and given it, jittered, sketchy outlines. I loved this look, gave a proper comic book feel and I kept wondering why developers never utilized this, not even for comic license games. It seems that only now are they even nudging at this with the upcoming Prince of Persia and that Japanese army game (can't recall the title).

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sailing left something to be desired? like a controller attachment that wanks you off as you wait?

other than the sailing, the game lacked change of scenery. At any given time the overworld was either ocean, stormy ocean, or beach. They tried with some of the volcano islands and whatnot, but it just didnt do it for me. Temples were brilliant, gameplay, graphics, story, all brilliant. I liked the grittier feel of TP more though, it made me feel less like i was playing a hi def gameboy game. Im so sick of those, i was actually glad when PH failed enough for me to stop playing it mid game

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I'm not a fan of the flat-colored, thick outline type of cel-shading. Around the same time Wind Waker was out a friend had been messing around with rendering in the Quake source and given it, jittered, sketchy outlines. I loved this look, gave a proper comic book feel and I kept wondering why developers never utilized this, not even for comic license games. It seems that only now are they even nudging at this with the upcoming Prince of Persia and that Japanese army game (can't recall the title).

Valkyria Chronicles?

I also think they've nailed the anime look with the newest Naruto.

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I think the point that pushed me over in the "like it a lot" camp was when you get the master sword.

You walk underground, in this hall surrounded by stained glass windows. And all the stained glass feels like what you are playing is not a cartoon, but a stained glass Link. It gives a nice feeling, and while it does look cartoony, is you see the stained glass, it also looks freaking epic.

What I would love to see is the Twilight palet and shapes, with the cell shading, to see if they could have a less cartoonish stained glass style.

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My problem with Wind Waker had nothing to do with its style. There wasn't near enough ending for the amount of gameplay you put in. Other than that it was great.

I dunno, while the ending may have been short, a lot of Zelda games share that fate. And I dare say the finale after the last boss was just... brilliant.

I loved Wind Waker. I loved its style and its graphics. They were offputting at first, but once I saw it in motion, I knew it was great. Hell, even your enemies emoted very well. I never, in any other Zelda game, found mashing a moblin's face in with a boomerang MORE entertaining.

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Wind Waker is definitely one of my top 3 Zelda games. There's something so amazing to me about the colors and the expressions of Link and the fact that you actually have an adventure game with a bright, almost-happy setting as opposed to the standard doom-and-gloom of story-driven games. There's a sense of joy to be had when playing Wind Waker, because I feel they did a wonderful job of portraying the youthful heroism of Link, and the people who help him on his journey.

WW also has a sense of artistic direction, much like other cel-shaded games (Dark Cloud 2 immediately comes to mind for me as well). Whereas OoT immediately looks dated now, WW still holds its own because it represents an art style, as opposed to simply being the most graphically advanced thing possible at the time. Graphics get dated, style doesn't. Also, I may be the only person ever who actually enjoys sailing.

WW had my favorite Link, and my favorite Ganondorf by far. OoT actually introduced Ganondorf as a character as opposed to a faceless endboss, and WW successfully expanded on that character in my opinion. He's a little wiser, and more reflective, but he still harbors the same greed and hate that make him such a compelling villain. They've just been tempered by age, until he unleashes it in a vengeful but ultimately futile attack. The Triforce is beyond his grasp, but he still hates, and Link and Zelda's lives are a consolation prize. To me, Twilight Princess represented a huge step backwards in terms of Ganondorf, to the days of Ganon/Aghanim, where Ganon is nothing more than a puppeteer of a much more interesting villain (in this case, Zant) and simply makes a cameo appearance at the end.

I could continue singing the praises of WW forever, but I'll sum it up as such: I think Wind Waker (along with Majora's Mask), is one of the more ambitious and unique Zelda games, and I love it for the vision and risk-taking demonstrated. Fantastic gameplay is par for the course for a Zelda game; it's everything else that makes this one of my favorites.

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To me, Twilight Princess represented a huge step backwards in terms of Ganondorf, to the days of Ganon/Aghanim, where Ganon is nothing more than a puppeteer of a much more interesting villain (in this case, Zant) and simply makes a cameo appearance at the end.

I cannot agree with this any more than I do now

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I never beat TP but got a fair amount of distance in and when it seemed to become a remake or anthology of "Zelda's greatest gameplay moments" I got tired of it. There are some cool new elements, but hunting down the 4 ghosts just like in OOT rubbed me the wrong way. If it's a new game, I'd prefer the developers to make a new game. If it's a remake, I'd rather them not represent it as something new.

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Well, thanks for posting on the topic, haven't seen you around here for a while McVaffe. Good to hear from you.

And as far as the comment about sailing. Yeah, I do think that the sailing aspect got a little bit stale. But they definitely improved on it in Phantom Hourglass, where you were more involved in retrieving the underwater treasure (I did enjoy trying to guide the crane down to the box, and bringing it back up).

I hope Nintendo considers using the style on a console release (though I'm doubtful since so many fanboys disliked it, but that's just their opinion, so I can't be mean to 'em), it would be so awesome to see it reused.

In terms of the wii controls, I think Twilight had a good usage of them. Fishing was and still is awesome (but of course doesn't hold a candle to the real thing), but you have to check out this article I found, it will definitely be awesome to see if Nintendo does this with the controls...

http://www.n-sider.com/contentview.php?contentid=412

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Personally I wasn't a fan of WW's graphical style - not the cel-shading itself, but the direction they took with the cel-shading. Mainly some of the character looks rubbed off a little badly on me, although I'm not so shallow to let it bother me, as the game had other huge flaws that pissed me off.

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I feel bad for Wind Waker in that it was hated for the wrong reasons. I was a part of the initial doubt when the game was first announced. After the original GameCube demos, the Wind Waker style felt like a stab through the heart.

But after the release and just a few hours of play, that cel shaded style became the game's greatest asset. In fact, I feel the art and cinematic look to that game greatly surpassed Ocarina.

On the other hand, the gameplay (outside of combat) took a tragic step back. The world felt under developed, and the dungeon count lacking. In fact, the TriForce hunt to me felt like a shallow tack on to extend the life of a single playthrough. Whereas exploring in the other 3D Hyrules for secrets and such is fun, sailing upon a monotonous backdrop quickly became a chore.

I actually just restarted Ocarina a few days ago, and the only reason that won out over Wind Waker was the sheer distaste for the sailing aspect of the game.

I will always remember the cinematics and the story of Wind Waker as brilliant and amazing, it's just too bad they couldn't put them in a game worthy of it.

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On the other hand' date=' the gameplay (outside of combat) took a tragic step back. The world felt under developed, and the dungeon count lacking. In fact, the TriForce hunt to me felt like a shallow tack on to extend the life of a single playthrough. Whereas exploring in the other 3D Hyrules for secrets and such is fun, sailing upon a monotonous backdrop quickly became a chore.

I actually just restarted Ocarina a few days ago, and the only reason that won out over Wind Waker was the sheer distaste for the sailing aspect of the game.

I will always remember the cinematics and the story of Wind Waker as brilliant and amazing, it's just too bad they couldn't put them in a game worthy of it.[/quote']

I agree, sailing did become a chore, so did the whole triforce hunt. They did say that two dungeons were cut to meet release date.

You know, I did try to start back on Ocarina, but I only got to the Third Dungeon (Jabu Jabu's Belly), and stopped. I just couldn't get back into it. I'll ALWAYS, ALWAYS remember the great story in OoT, and the great cutscenes. But I just can't and won't go back through it again. Mostly because I'm not as enthralled by it anymore...

And the cinemas still stay with me in both WW and OoT. Before the final battle was just absolutely incredible in WW, and the last few cutscenes in OoT, including the awesome ending credits and music (I still wish they'd orchestrate the end credits music, it would be absolutely gorgeous).

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Wind Waker is definitely one of my top 3 Zelda games. There's something so amazing to me about the colors and the expressions of Link and the fact that you actually have an adventure game with a bright, almost-happy setting as opposed to the standard doom-and-gloom of story-driven games. There's a sense of joy to be had when playing Wind Waker, because I feel they did a wonderful job of portraying the youthful heroism of Link, and the people who help him on his journey.

WW also has a sense of artistic direction, much like other cel-shaded games (Dark Cloud 2 immediately comes to mind for me as well). Whereas OoT immediately looks dated now, WW still holds its own because it represents an art style, as opposed to simply being the most graphically advanced thing possible at the time. Graphics get dated, style doesn't. Also, I may be the only person ever who actually enjoys sailing.

WW had my favorite Link, and my favorite Ganondorf by far. OoT actually introduced Ganondorf as a character as opposed to a faceless endboss, and WW successfully expanded on that character in my opinion. He's a little wiser, and more reflective, but he still harbors the same greed and hate that make him such a compelling villain. They've just been tempered by age, until he unleashes it in a vengeful but ultimately futile attack. The Triforce is beyond his grasp, but he still hates, and Link and Zelda's lives are a consolation prize. To me, Twilight Princess represented a huge step backwards in terms of Ganondorf, to the days of Ganon/Aghanim, where Ganon is nothing more than a puppeteer of a much more interesting villain (in this case, Zant) and simply makes a cameo appearance at the end.

I could continue singing the praises of WW forever, but I'll sum it up as such: I think Wind Waker (along with Majora's Mask), is one of the more ambitious and unique Zelda games, and I love it for the vision and risk-taking demonstrated. Fantastic gameplay is par for the course for a Zelda game; it's everything else that makes this one of my favorites.

Could not agree more. On all points.

I never really understood everyone's problem with sailing. I always thought there was just enough stuff (subs, platforms, islands, big octos, etc) to explore along the way to wherever it is you're going that it never really got boring.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the game's number 2 gripe, the difficulty. As much as I loved WW, I always hoped it would just throw something crazy hard in my face, like a darknut that does like 5 hearts damage. Or a boss that doesn't follow the typical formula of "use new item, then hit it with your sword". But it never happened. The kiddie difficulty is the game's only real flaw, IMO.

The final fight, though? Amazing. Even if it also wasn't very hard.

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I do agree that the Triforce hunt is the stupidest thing ever in a Zelda game. I don't need ten separate, huge dungeons, but that was just terrible. And it was way too easy, but only because of the damage ratio (quarter-heart damage? Come on!). But the puzzles were typical Zelda stuff, which made me happy.

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The Wind Waker is absolutely amazing. I don't know if I like it more than Ocarina but I feel the world is the most immersing and enveloping of any Zelda ever made. Plus, the final hour of the game ramps up the atmosphere and incredible execution tenfold. I thought the quest for all the triforce pieces (the part most everyone hated) was one of the best parts, simply because it MAKES you delve into the massive ocean, fill up your chart, and explore around (as any Zelda should) - in fact, in a lot of ways the exploration was the best of any Zelda game (What's that thing on the horizon? Whip out telescope. That island has a creepy shape, I think I'll go check it ouOSHIT THERE'S A SUBMARINE). This is where Twilight Princess failed for me and why the atmosphere was nothing compared to Wind Waker - there wasn't any exploration for me (which I thought was the point of Zelda games). It was very linear. Go to A. Done with A, go to B. Done with B, go to C. Done with C, unlocked D, E, and F. Go to D.

I still really appreciate the environments, a few of the Temple designs, the beautiful graphics and some of the soundtrack of TP, but it wasn't nearly as immersive an experience for me as Wind Waker. WW had a massive depth to the environment (even if the land space was less than other games) because of how it was done. Plus, the characters were much better written and expressive in WW than TP (excluding Midna, who was amazing). TP tried to be really GOOD at all the elements that made it up, but WW was much more consistent and COHESIVE with its elements (in the goal of creating a massive, interactive cartoon world).

The really interesting thing to think about with WW is that in some ways the plot is extremely dark for a Zelda game. (Minor spoilers). Think about it. Ganon freed himself and wreaked havoc on Hyrule, which was then sealed over permanently by a massive flood. Majora's Mask is dark because it's about the impending apocalypse repeating again and again, but in Wind Waker the apocalypse has already happened and you couldn't do anything to stop it. This plot put up against the most stylized and cartoony design scheme of a Zelda really can create a creepy (and brilliant) atmosphere that I feel comes to a head in the black and white, frozen sequence under the ocean. That's one of my favorite moments of any game.

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I think Wind Waker was the pinnacle of the modern 3D Zeldas. I think after that one they should've simply looked at the original NES Zelda for inspiration and started from scratch, without ties to Ocarina of Time. Twilight Princess was way too much of a rehash of Ocarina for me. I couldn't even finish it.

Anyway, as for the look, it was so perfectly implemented. Better than any other game. It wasn't plagued by the usual graphical problems that other games have, like polygon tearing and warping and there were very few clipping issues. After that, Twilight Princess looked buggy, muddy and unrefined.

Twilight Princess was not a bad game, but Zelda and I have had a falling out after Wind Waker. I can't go back until I'm certain it will be a new game. :(

Okay, done.

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The really interesting thing to think about with WW is that in some ways the plot is extremely dark for a Zelda game. (Minor spoilers). Think about it. Ganon freed himself and wreaked havoc on Hyrule, which was then sealed over permanently by a massive flood. Majora's Mask is dark because it's about the impending apocalypse repeating again and again, but in Wind Waker the apocalypse has already happened and you couldn't do anything to stop it. This plot put up against the most stylized and cartoony design scheme of a Zelda really can create a creepy (and brilliant) atmosphere that I feel comes to a head in the black and white, frozen sequence under the ocean. That's one of my favorite moments of any game.

I think I love you.

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I think Wind Waker was the pinnacle of the modern 3D Zeldas. I think after that one they should've simply looked at the original NES Zelda for inspiration and started from scratch, without ties to Ocarina of Time. Twilight Princess was way too much of a rehash of Ocarina for me. I couldn't even finish it.

Twilight Princess was not a bad game, but Zelda and I have had a falling out after Wind Waker. I can't go back until I'm certain it will be a new game. :(

Okay, done.

I honestly feel like they did that because so many fans were just so ignorant with Wind Waker. They were so wrapped up in seeing a "mature" Link, that they just couldn't enjoy it.

As for the story, they must have wanted it to be like OoT, they must have felt pressured to live up to it. But that game has come and gone. Don't reuse the same elements of the tale. If they want to be so close OoT, then remake it. I loved Midna's tale in Twilight, but beyond that, not much else besides a few boss fights were that great for me.

They need to start from scratch on the storyline. Wind Waker to me was like a brand new game, in terms of it's story. But it referenced back from where it came, not forgetting the past. Besides, we got to finally see the king of hyrule.

And yeah, the black and white scene was absolutely awesome, I was completely shocked.

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I don't need ten separate, huge dungeons...

I do however, and this was my biggest gripe with Wind Waker other than poor overworld design and sailing that didn't have enough going for it.

Someone said that they scrapped two dungeons from the final game earlier in the thread. Last I heard, it was more around four or six. That kind of annoyed me since I thought Wind Waker was a pretty solid game even with my complaints.

What I wanna see in a new Zelda game? Expanded use of the 1:1 Wii Motion+ attachment. Imagine if you would the potential for the Hero's Bow. Hold down the trigger button on the Wiimote while pulling it back from the nunchuck, then releasing the trigger and hear a "thwip!" from the little speaker and based on distance from the nunchuck, the arrow would fly farther or nearer. Wanna move around while targeting? Just move the analogue stick on the nunchuck.

Sword combat? Imagine being surrounded on all sides by about 7 or 8 moblins. One behind you decides to go in for an easy swipe. You anticipate this and fling your wiimote behind your back and parry his attack, one of the others from the frontside sees your sword hand is occupied, the nunchuck handles the shield and you give him a quick shield bashing straight to the face. back to the one behind you, you spin around with the analogue stick and thrust the wiimote, which thrusts right into his chest. Stuff like that.

Riding Epona would be awesome, as you could use two control schemes for movement, either handling her with the wiimote like the reins of an actual horse and pulling back to stop, pressing the trigger to boost, etc. When using a weapon on horseback, it switches to analogue mode so you have complete control(or at least moderate) over her movement while using a sword or bow.

Whoo... Got a bit off-topic there, but seriously, if Nintendo did even HALF of this shit or shit like it, I'd be all over the Wii. Since they developed the Wii M+ and thus knew about it, they could totally do it.

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