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djpretzel

OCR01333 - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time "Prayer"

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At First, I thought this remix would be a bit weird because of the weird chords people sing in the beginning, But after, I found this to be beautifuly done. The singing is fabulous, and I like it very much. I have no clue wether you created the text or not, but the way you sing is absolutely amazing. I look forward to your other remixes. ^_^

-Charles

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wow....this is excellent! Taking a very low-key song like the Forest Temple theme and adding some meat to it is always a challenge in itself. But, this is a great finished product.

An amazing voice, too. One that makes you wanna sigh collectively, just cause it pulls you into the clouds and keeps you there throughout the whole song. Yeah, maybe not pitch-perfect, but that in no way deterrs from the ethereal atmosphere its putting out so well. Hope to hear more of this voice on other mixes, well done. Kudos, Ms. Goldin. :D

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Actually, listenign through the mix a second time the 3:15-3:40 section does make some bit of sence. you can tell she was tryign to do something because the same off-key progression is repeated. Maybe there was a goal of disanance but it didn't play out too well because of the mastering volumes.

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I was actually referring to the parts between 3:15 and 3:40 that were not entirely on key :P The other "oo-eh" parts were fine.

Those are the parts I am talking about, too.

http://www.fayhaven.com/Forest%20Temple%20Original.mp3

Above is a link to the source material. For any of you out there who still think I'm singing out of tune, please download it and then listen from 1:16 to 1:30. That is the spot that corresponds to 3:26-3:40 in my version. I assume that those are the funky pitches you are referring to. If after listening you're still not convinced, here's a little theory lesson.

The piece was written in E Major, which has four sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#. So the notes that "belong" in the key if you were to go up the scale are E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#. The "oh-eh" voice in the weird section sings a pattern like this:

B, Eb, A, C# -- B, Eb, A, C# -- Eb, Eb, C#, C# -- Eb, Eb, C#, C# -- B, B, A, A etc.

The repeated E-flats are not part of the key of E Major; one would expect E-naturals instead. That's why it sounds like I'm out of tune to you. You think I'm under pitch....that I'm not quite reaching those E-naturals. Well yes, I'm not! Because the E-flats were actually *intentionally* written in the original. They create a feeling of tension and instability because the usual tonic triad of EG#B is now EbG#B, making it an augmented chord. This is one of the tonal devices that makes the Forest Temple so creepy. Quite smart on Koji Kondo's part.

Now do you believe me? Hehe. Never accuse a classical singer of being out-of-tune unless you are absolutely sure. :wink: (But hey- the fact that you noticed that it sounds strange means you have a good ear!)

-Jilly

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Actually, I have more of an issue with the C#. It's probably not even anything on your part...I'm not sure if it's the effect of acoustics or the presence of unexpected overtones due to the self-harmony or even if it's possible that the original track is the one that's actually out of tune. But there's just an additional amount of dissonance that wasn't in the original. Whatever the reason, you don't have to automatically assume everyone else is wrong. Have a little more faith in your critics and give them the benefit of the doubt once in a while, eh? ;)

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Now do you believe me? Hehe. Never accuse a classical singer of being out-of-tune unless you are absolutely sure.

-Jilly

I'm not looking for flames, but talk about ego. :|

Perhaps that strange note isn't your fault, and you chose to copy the original sequence.. well, nice of you to provide the original sample. Anyways, I think you should regard these comments positively. There are posters who rose vehemently to your defence, but nobody's bashed you at all. It's pretty ridiculous. Regardless, hopefully you'll continue improving and produce even better works in the future.

//edit: After listening to the original, I'll agree with Dhsu that the dissonance in your remix is more than that's present in the original. I listened to it very carefully again.. it might be the same notes as they were in the original, but they certainly weren't synthesized in the same context -- in the original it played as a counter melody/contrasting counter I believe.. but yeah, I listened carefully and well, it didn't sound so bad after all. But to the person who's listening casually, it can be pretty distracting.

Also, I take back my words of praise that you had a magnificent vision for the soundscape.. it's basically a reprise of the original, with better samples and nicer sounds and little additions. However, I would like to add praise that the adding of the melodic line for your vocals is pretty damn brilliant. I love how you could think of fitting such a great line into such a strange original.. I think you have a lot of promise.

Just two pointers as I have aforementioned - cut on the swelling ("kashite soshite") and MAYBE fine-tune the balance a little and let your voice "sit" on top of the music.

Looking forward to your future works.

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Now do you believe me? Hehe. Never accuse a classical singer of being out-of-tune unless you are absolutely sure.

-Jilly

I'm not looking for flames, but talk about ego.

Aw, c'mon. You left out the ":wink:" that immediately followed that statement. I was actually trying to poke fun at *myself* for having made such a long spiel. I meant it like, "This is what you get when you diss a singer. Hahaha...oh, singers..." because of the reputation we get for being divas. I didn't actually mean it seriously...I'm sorry! :cry:

Anyway, perhaps it does sound a little different in the acoustic setting. I just assumed that Artificial_Al and the others who commented on that part thought it was off because those E-flats were supposed to be E-naturals.

-Jill

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Fabulous mix; I adore your voice. And it was awesome that you explained the entire set-up of notes from the key signature. :lol: I'm a vocal major myself, and it's nice to see there's a few of us left who also understand music theory and don't just go all "diva" on everyone. :D

The Japanese was lovely, too. Only a couple of words sounded forced, and I didn't even notice them until they were pointed out. The vocalizing was very impressive...it was nice to hear clear tones. Those are difficult intervals to hit without scooping the notes.

Just wonderful. I hope to hear more from you. :D

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I can see both sides of the argument here, and something similar popped up way back when with GrayLightning and a particular mix he submitted. Basically it boils down to intention. If critics say, "this section kind of rubbed me the wrong way" and the artist doesn't really have any justification for it, then it's critisism that should probably be heeded. But obviously she knows what she's doing and intended the dissonance. Maybe even adding a little more! Just like many of you would go to a Butoh performance and say, "What the hell? Why is that old man wearing a torn nighty and convulsing on stage? Is he some insane bum?" You might not like it, but what he is doing is very intentional, probably in order to stir up emotions such as the ones you would have. Same kind of thing applies to this mix!

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ok, i've been lurking around ocremix for over a year now and this has quickly become one of my favorite remixes. i finally registered in the forums just so i could say this to you.

your interpretation of the forest temple song is imaginative, pixie, and your voice is pure and touching. how refreshing to hear!

now for any of you dudes who responded negatively to her explanation, give this girl a break. i'm a composer and i've worked with alotta vocalists. if you tell a singer she's off-key, most would respond by either exploding at you or bursting out in tears. the fact that pixie took the time to explain why that dissonance is there through ::music theory:: sets her way apart from the bunch. this chick is no diva.

so yeah...really nice work, pixietricks! :D

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Wow. Great Song, very ethereal. Almost as if you stumbled upon a cave full of faeries, but instead of just floating around above a pool of water nonsensically like they always do, they're worshipping the three goddesses. I didn't really have a problem with the "oo-eh's," especially when you listen to the original track, it was very well in keeping to the original, which is one of my favorite tracks. Very nice, something i could fall asleep to....but in a very, VERY good way. Keep 'em coming.

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Go, almondray! Someone finally socks it to'em! All of these nit-picky people are getting on my nerves with their dissection of pixie's song.

If you negative people don't like the way it is after she explains the WHY part of it, then don't listen. No one's making you download the music and listen to it.

My own mother, who is a rational woman and knows a little bit about music, gives this song full recommendation.

To pixie: My mother loves your voice and actually wants to hear more remixes in the future. ^_^ You've got two votes of approval right here!

To the negatives: Get a life. If all you have time for it to tear a good piece like this apart, then you've got too much time on your hands. And as a side note, this song would appeal more to the Zelda fans who have played through the Forest Temple than it would people who just listen to the music.

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To the negatives: Get a life. If all you have time for it to tear a good piece like this apart, then you've got too much time on your hands.

Actually, a good artist would gracefully show gratitude to people who put time into giving critiques. Do you think Jill spends so much time and money for vocal lessons to hear her teacher rave for an hour about how perfect her voice is and how there's nothing to be improved?

Get a life? For some people, being good at pointing out faults is how they make a living.

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Again, I *MUST* emphasize.

NO ONE is tearing this piece apart. NO ONE is bashing her. Why is everyone so defensive of pixietricks? Who're the ones needing a life here? :P Anyways, as far as I see, there are much positive comments here, and those who made negative comments have pointed out on where to improve. I thought that was called constructive criticism.

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Oy. I think it's time to make peace, everybody!

Thanks, almondray and Raza Bloodfire, for rushing to my defense. I do appreciate your intentions. But don't worry, I can take a little criticism. It's all part of the business, as Dhsu and arias said. This is how I improve for next time!

The constant comments about the "out-of-tune" dissonances were starting to bog me down, yes, which is why I wanted to explain how they were intentional. I'd just rather be receiving new comments and suggestions instead of hearing the same old thing about something people seemed to be misunderstanding.

The only thing that irked me a bit was when I was branded "egotistical" for trying to explain those notes. But I think I got that response mostly because of the joke I made at the very end, which was taken literally. I should have been more clear that I was really trying to poke fun at myself. 8O

In any case! For all you critics out there... I *am* taking your comments to heart. I thoroughly appreciate the suggestions. Here are some things I'm keeping in mind for next time:

- Pay attention to synths and other choices of instrumentation. Stuff that maybe fits the style a little better? Perhaps that lead one was a little *too* 80's.

- Less "swelling" in the vocal lines. I definitely see how I went a little overboard there, hehe.

- Mixing the main melody a bit louder so it "rides on top of the arrangement"

- A better sense of climax. Though I don't feel that was as necessary in a piece like this, it is something I should keep in mind for the future.

- Soundscaping. This was my first attempt at remixing, so I still have a lot to learn!

- More attention to detail in foreign languages. I stand by my choice to sing in Japanese, but I could have made more effort in the pronunciation. The only person I asked for help there was Evilhead. He approved, so I assumed perhaps too quickly that it was fine. Next time, I will also find someone locally to give me a little language coaching.

Yep yep. Good stuff, guys. I'm really getting a lot out of this experience. ^_^

-Jill

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- A better sense of climax. Though I don't feel that was as necessary in a piece like this, it is something I should keep in mind for the future.

I agree. I would throw out such comments like yesterday's trash. :lol: In all seriousness, the above criticism is more of a personal taste issue, rather than one grounded in technical merit. That's my take on it anyway. One has to considering this context, genre and source material. Not every genre must obey rules observed in other genres. Ultimately though it's up to you to decide which comments you consider here of value and which are just ridiculous (of which there are many).

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arias, you definitely posted constructive criticism, and a good deal of it.

However, others did not (mainly the first few pages) and were just insulting her or her mix because she chose to sing in Japanese, or that she mispronounced words (when in fact Japanese pop artists tend to mispronounce just as much as pixietricks does). A few of her words were a little forced, but it did not deserve the negative attention it was drawing from people. In other words, they could have said things in a much more polite way to illustrate their thoughts on the song.

I wouldn't want her leaving the mixing scene because people were bashing her for singing in Japanese. She has an incredibly beautiful voice, and I'd like to hear more of it, especially in more mixes. How can you expect someone to want to keep doing something if people continually throw insults at a person who is trying this out for the first time? That is why a lot of people jumped to her rescue. We want her to stay and make more mixes, and we don't want some rude peopel that think they know everything about Japanese scaring them away (when in fact, it was they that were mistaken/over-critical about singing Japanese).

I think I will post up Sakura Drops, or at least a piece of it so you can hear the similarity of the singing.

Edit:

http://members.cox.net/garde/Utada%20Hikaru%20-%20Sakura%20Drops.mp3

I am posting this merely as a reference, that is all.

And if you're wondering where you've heard her voice before, Utada Hikaru sung for the Kingdom Hearts soundtrack.

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On the subject of singing in Japanese, I saw little criticism of Star Salzman's Hebrew/Arabic singing in Pillar Of Salt (great mix, check it out if you haven't already), and the mispronunciations that there inevitably was in his singing.

Just seems to me that people are ragging on pixietricks singing in Japanese because it's Japanese. Maybe I'm wrong though.

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On the subject of singing in Japanese, I saw little criticism of Star Salzman's Hebrew/Arabic singing in Pillar Of Salt (great mix, check it out if you haven't already), and the mispronunciations that there inevitably was in his singing.

Just seems to me that people are ragging on pixietricks singing in Japanese because it's Japanese. Maybe I'm wrong though.

No, I think you're right. Japan is the flavor of the month lately, and of course anything popular will gather hate from everyone else simply due to the fact that it is popular. The the rest of us non-Yugi-Oh fans, Japanese is a beautiful language!

I do have to say that her pronunciation WAS quite good. Honestly when she posted her first recording of it I was almost wincing before I played it because I thought she would butcher it. I have many American friends here with AWFUL Japanese pronunciation, and it drives me completely insane. Poorly spoken Japanese is a real pet peeve of mine, actually. But when I heard it I was surprised at how good it sounded from someone who had never been taught it formally before. A few other posters and myself gave her some tips on how to improve and she heeded the advice right very well! She mentioned finding someone locally to help her with the pronunciation, and that would be great help as well. Nothing can really beat having someone right there helping you. Hopefully you can find someone Jill!

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My last addition to this thread, which has spawned much posts that detracts from the purpose of this thread.. is that I don't believe that the criticisms here would have deterred her from continuing to make remixes. Interference in the form of the vehement defence of pixietricks was totally unwarranted.

Listened to Sakura Drops.. I'm not totally sure what the similarities are -- Utada voice is closer to a low tenor and has a distinctive timber, as well as an "airiness" in her singing. Anyways, for your information, Utada is not -really- a native Japanese speaker; she was educated mostly in the U.S. In fact, in an interview from a few years ago, she claims to write her lyrics in english first, and translates them to Japanese later.

Anyway, good to know pixie, that you can take such criticisms. Get working on your next work -- many of us look forward to it.

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