Brandon Strader Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Post "Dreams of Death" so we can put this "techno filth" stuff to rest. NOBODY ever defends death metal. That song got insulted in the albums' own release thread a few times and nobody got outraged then. Maybe this techno filth stuff just hits a bit close to home for some people. (Techno isn't the only genre that gets insulted, it's just sometimes the most common genre to get actively posted) Also glad to see my posts got hidden in some back alley thread again. I hope at the very least the important one was read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishy Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Gotta watch out. The stuff that's in the vid doesn't come close to costing even the original $15k that the kickstarter was for. If this money is gonna go lining some peoples pockets under the guise of "site costs" then I'm gonna be dropping out ASAP. I don't work for free so that someone else can make a modest profit. Snaps we had a skype meeting about the fact the money is going way over last night. I can assure you NO ONE is gonna pocket anything. Everyone is keeping each other extremely honest, and the insinuation that we would even think of personally gaining from the album is TOTALLY against the OCR ethos/mission and we aren't going near it. There will be announcements in the next few days, but the people who will benefit directly from the funds would be the donators getting more shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishy Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 agreed, someone's making a fat profit from doing supposedly "free" game remixing. You could at least wait for us to answer before accusing of stuff as if it's fact. We already did a very accurate breakdown of the original $15K, there was only $1000 that didn't go into making and (internationally) shipping a 4-disc album. Obviously we have to come up with legitimate uses for the oversubscribed funds, and we will do that in a way that does not benefit any members of staff personally or financially. Seriously, if we don't do this honestly you'll see me quit very very quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkeSword Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Good God guys, how many times do we have to say "not-for-profit" before people believe us? Has OCR ever done anything for-profit? Have we ever exploited any artist for personal financial gain? Nobody's "lining their pockets" from this. Nobody's making a "fat profit." The whole idea is categorically ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpretzel Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Gotta watch out. The stuff that's in the vid doesn't come close to costing even the original $15k that the kickstarter was for. If this money is gonna go lining some peoples pockets under the guise of "site costs" then I'm gonna be dropping out ASAP. I don't work for free so that someone else can make a modest profit. Andreas, I hope you're just semi-trolling here, as you've been known to do, as opposed to ACTUALLY suggesting what would be unethical in the extreme on our part - specifically MY part, since I manage all OCR finances directly? Let me just speak to this briefly... OverClocked ReMix, LLC is a sole proprietorship in my name. I take all aspects of its operation VERY seriously... so seriously, in fact, that it's usually the opposite scenario - we're being criticized for too MUCH planning, management, policy, etc. It sometimes seems like you can't win, either way. At any rate, all OC ReMix funds are managed in a separate savings account & tracked separately from my personal finances, for clear auditability. Likewise, I've got my own personal PayPal account that is completely separate from the OC ReMix PayPal account. It's disappointing after exerting a lot of effort to make sure all T's are crossed and I's dotted to have someone suggesting we would, after twelve years of operation & six years of being self-hosted and distinct from ZTNET (i.e. managing the servers & money ourselves), suddenly break form and ruin all of that effort. Here's what I think is happening: People are seeing a large dollar amount and getting a little batty in the brain, through some misdirected sense of jealousy or who knows what. We're still us, no aspect of how site funds are managed will change as a result of this process, and the only end result is going to be improvement to the album itself & OCR at large. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 To me, the kickstarter is a non-issue. If you have doubts about where the extra money goes, don't donate. Seems pretty simple. The fact that the original goal has been surpassed by over 30k, this project has far more support than negative feedback. There will always be people who come out of the woodwork looking for trouble every time something new is tried. That's not to say people shouldn't ask legitimate questions. The problem is when people start making accusations that someone is getting a profit, with no basis whatsoever for those accusations. And to anyone who feels slighted by not being invited to the album, well boo hoo, get over it. There were tons of other remixers who could have been invited, but weren't for whatever reason. Thinking you weren't invited because you're being slighted is childish and egotistical. To think you are entitled to an invite is absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsolinearMoogle Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I have to assume that a lot of the criticisms about "fat profit" are not taking into account the history of the site. Pretty long con... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnappleMan Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Here's what I think is happening: People are seeing a large dollar amount and getting a little batty in the brain, through some misdirected sense of jealousy or who knows what. We're still us, no aspect of how site funds are managed will change as a result of this process, and the only end result is going to be improvement to the album itself & OCR at large. Period. Here's what I think is happening: You have no idea this would happen, and you probably think you're gonna line your pockets while other people do the work. Everything is nice when it's all free and innocent, but when you start getting into large dollar amounts (100% of which are supposed to go to one specific thing) you run into some issues. You can spin this all you want and get into that typical mega defensive mode where you blindly battle the forces of anti-OCR to save the day, but as that dollar amount grows, so does the issue of where it's gonna go. You know that all the costs of production will not come close to the now $50k that's been raised. Remember, this kickstarter is for the FF6 project ONLY, not for OCR. It's not a "help OCR" fundraiser. If you fall back to "everyone is jealous cuz I got $50k" you're gonna be spinning on your ass when Square shuts you down like that they did that "FREE RELEASE" chrono trigger remake that was on kickstarter. Like I keep saying, being defensive isn't going to get you anywhere in a situation like this, being CAREFUL is what's needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Putting a few of those thousands into reprints of other albums (or first prints, for some) would be pretty cool, and show something tangible that the money went into. I'm sure the backers would appreciate some additional physical albums, too. Aside from that ferrari, I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Here's what I think is happening: You have no idea this would happen, and you probably think you're gonna line your pockets while other people do the work. Everything is nice when it's all free and innocent, but when you start getting into large dollar amounts (100% of which are supposed to go to one specific thing) you run into some issues. You can spin this all you want and get into that typical mega defensive mode where you blindly battle the forces of anti-OCR to save the day, but as that dollar amount grows, so does the issue of where it's gonna go. You know that all the costs of production will not come close to the now $50k that's been raised.Remember, this kickstarter is for the FF6 project ONLY, not for OCR. It's not a "help OCR" fundraiser. If you fall back to "everyone is jealous cuz I got $50k" you're gonna be spinning on your ass when Square shuts you down like that they did that "FREE RELEASE" chrono trigger remake that was on kickstarter. Like I keep saying, being defensive isn't going to get you anywhere in a situation like this, being CAREFUL is what's needed. Look, do you think everyone that has contributed past the $15,000 mark is being at all deceived? Obviously we're past the point of paying for the physical production costs of FF6, but that doesn't mean we're going to pocket the rest as profit. As has been said several times, we'll be doing extra rewards with some of the funds (such as the bonus DVD and more content to be announced soon) and anything left over on top of that will go to OCR - the organization, not any individual people. There's plenty of precedent for this among countless Kickstarters we looked at. For example: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jeriaska/nubuwo-debut-bundle-adventures-in-videogame-audio People know that at THIS point, some amount of their donation is simply a donation to OCR itself. What does OCR do with money like that? The same thing we've done with donations for the last 12 years: pay for hosting, bandwidth, other physical prints, t-shirts, etc. Unless you think literally the entire staff is lying about this and we've all secretly been making money all along, take my word for it that the % of excess money that ISN'T going toward new rewards will simply be put into the OCR bank account for the same sort of uses that any other OCR donations would be used for. We've taken GREAT pains to NOT make money from anything, even while lots of other VGM artists and bands are making profit off unlicensed albums and concerts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnetic Ether Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 To me, the kickstarter is a non-issue. If you have doubts about where the extra money goes, don't donate. Seems pretty simple. Exactly. Obviously this would be a much bigger deal if you were forced to pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpretzel Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Here's what I think is happening: You have no idea this would happen, and you probably think you're gonna line your pockets while other people do the work. Everything is nice when it's all free and innocent, but when you start getting into large dollar amounts (100% of which are supposed to go to one specific thing) you run into some issues. You can spin this all you want and get into that typical mega defensive mode where you blindly battle the forces of anti-OCR to save the day, but as that dollar amount grows, so does the issue of where it's gonna go. You know that all the costs of production will not come close to the now $50k that's been raised.Remember, this kickstarter is for the FF6 project ONLY, not for OCR. It's not a "help OCR" fundraiser. If you fall back to "everyone is jealous cuz I got $50k" you're gonna be spinning on your ass when Square shuts you down like that they did that "FREE RELEASE" chrono trigger remake that was on kickstarter. Like I keep saying, being defensive isn't going to get you anywhere in a situation like this, being CAREFUL is what's needed. I'm really disappointed you think that. We've met in person, probably will meet again at MAG, we've spoken in the past... I don't know what I've done or haven't done to make that sort of impression, but I'm happy it's not shared by those who know me better. We had NO idea it was going to reach $15k in the first DAY, and keep going from there, that's certainly true. We DID think it might exceed the target - who knows? - and as we've mentioned, we envisioned excess funds would go partially to helping the site - which in turn DOES actually help the album, by the way. This was all disclosed to artists IN ADVANCE of the kickstarter going live, clearly, and there was a chance for comment/discussion. You yourself CHIMED IN on this private thread (I will not repeat your statement here), so you have absolutely no excuse whatsoever for making these statements about the what the kickstarter is for, or characterizing our expectations. Either you can't read, you didn't read, or you're intentionally misrepresenting the facts aka lying. Which is it, seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BONKERS Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Finally someone brought this up. Because I was SERIOUSLY PISSED how you people reacted to us trying to just give fans the opportunity to own a copy of our stuff. It was NEVER for money. I'm not even going to bother reading the excuses or "Reasons" you have for yours when you tore us apart basically. Sorry, that's just one thing I'm not and cannot be objective about. Because in the end, you only hurt the fans. At least we weren't asking for 15,000$ just to give people the chance to own one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otakatt Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Yeah, I think a part of the issue is the large dollar amount being raised, and that will be raised. When I first saw the amount explode I had reservations and concerns for sure. But after talking with someone and getting a little perspective I realized that yeah you guys probably didn't expect the kickstarter to be nearly as successful as it was, and so fast. It's an overwhelming thing to deal with for sure. It's outlined how that initial 15k would be spent, but people are still shelling out money. That's no fault of OCR. Yes, the inital reasoning was for the FF6 project, and it may have been a little shortsighted to not explain where additional funding could go, but again, it's hard to predict something being as successful as this. And it's not like people donating at this point are being tricked. One can clearly see the goal has more than been met. This is hardly the first time a Kickstarter project made well beyond the goal. As far as the VV whatever that keeps being brought up... I don't know much about that, or who was behind wanting to get it printed. And that says a lot. No established reputation. OCR has devoted years to building up a certain reputation. So it's understandable that people would be more willing to donate to something with a reputable cause than something with a group they know next to nothing about. It also doesn't help that at least a couple people in the VV group are very outspoken in a vitriolic way and are seemingly always trying to stir up the drama pot. You make a bad rep for yourself, people aren't going to be as trustworthy. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Dave already addressed the stuff with VV earlier in the thread, namely: I hope this clarifies things for you; short version is that for non-official albums, we can only express what we are most comfortable with in terms of promoting something that has money attached to it in any way, shape, or form. For official albums, anything fiscally-related needs to be held to a higher standard, with staff involvement. I read the VV thread myself and didn't see djp "tearing apart" anyone. Yes, the inital reasoning was for the FF6 project, and it may have been a little shortsighted to not explain where additional funding could go] For what it's worth, we thought it would be better NOT to talk about stretch goals at the very beginning because we thought it would look bad/presumptuous. We had a whole meeting about that. Consider that the most we've made in a YEAR from donations is <$10k - that's a full year! We obviously HOPED for this level of success, but we all agreed it didn't make sense to talk about goals beyond $15k before even starting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Because in the end, you only hurt the fans.At least we weren't asking for 15,000$ just to give people the chance to own one. Apparently the drama continues (unless I'm misreading your post). How exactly have the fans been hurt? Judging by how much money the Kickstarter project has made so far, I'd say the fans are pretty damn happy (myself included), most of them anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Finally someone brought this up. Because I was SERIOUSLY PISSED how you people reacted to us trying to just give fans the opportunity to own a copy of our stuff. It was NEVER for money.I'm not even going to bother reading the excuses or "Reasons" you have for yours when you tore us apart basically. Sorry, that's just one thing I'm not and cannot be objective about. Because in the end, you only hurt the fans. At least we weren't asking for 15,000$ just to give people the chance to own one. Cry me a river, dude. Vampire Variations print run wasn't a Kickstarter: it was a set price of $8 per album in the guise of a "donation." Outside of the cost of the print run and mailing, what were they donating to? At KNGI, we discussed it internally for months, and during that time I even expressed some serious concern over it because I didn't feel comfortable with anyone pocketing donation funds (this was before the discussion at OCR even happened, if I remember correctly,) and we never could figure out what to ethically do if the donations exceeded the cost of the print run. I honestly have no idea if each album would've even actually been $8 to both print and ship, and there was no indication of where any extra funds would go. In this case, OCR is a central organization that is receiving the money to use for bonus materials, additional rewards, overhead, upkeep, bandwidth, etc. etc. and it's transparently obvious that is where the Kickstarter money is going, which is why people keep continuing to make donations even when it's patently obvious that they're not going to be able to use all of the funds on the FF6 album. Maybe if Kickstarter had been a thing we knew about back when VV was released, we could've utilized it and had more transparency with rewards for donations. Otherwise, we had no way of making potential extra money work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxxDragon Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Lets make this simple: the KS asked for 15k. But anyone who wants the album (which is what the KS is for) needs to give $50. 1000 copies x $50 = 50k Anyone "surprised" by meeting and going above the 15k either: 1. Is lying 2. Is awful at math. So which is it? Simple question. Why $50 per album? ---- OTHER ALBUMS: I was going to stay out of the VV topic, but Kyle, you cut everyone deep. And the project was under your name, so I expected better. If you truly believe that VV might have somehow ended up with large extra profits, and we wouldn't be able to "figure out" what to do with them since we aren't OCR, then that says more about you than it does everyone else. The only reason we weren't sure of the cost is because we generously offered shipping as part of the deal. Thats it. It's an unknown, and it is an unknown here, too. The "transparency" argument is laughable. If anyone ever took issue, i'd happily show them actual receipts and break down every single cost you want. Will that happen here? After this is over, is OCR going to publish a doc detailing every single last one of their costs? I seriously doubt it. Seems to me the only answer we get is "hey we're OCR! trust us!". I would have thought, for someone supposedly running their own label (KNGI) you've have more faith in people than that. but oh well. Otakatt and anyone else: "i haven't heard of it therefore it doesn't matter". Classy. Moving anything other than "yay OCR!" posts to a totally different thread? Extra classy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Strader Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Cry me a river, dude. Show some respect. If you're that uncomfortable with VV, my web server is still available to host it and its website, like I originally intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otakatt Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Otakatt and anyone else: "i haven't heard of it therefore it doesn't matter". Classy. Moving anything other than "yay OCR!" posts to a totally different thread? Extra classy. When people are drama baiting, yeah, I can see why it's moved to its own thread. Besides, this sort of thing isn't exactly novel. Happens on sites quite a bit when mods want to keep the focus of a thread intact. I'm happy the mods are willing to let this be discussed instead of censoring altogether. And that was sort of the point, not hearing about something or the group backing it. REPUTATION. OCR has a reputation. It has built that reputation. Therefore I can see why someone would be far more comfortable with it doing donations than another group they don't know doing that. At 8$ a pop I don't honestly see people trying to line their pockets. But I can see the concerns that were had at the time being valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I was going to stay out of the VV topic, but Kyle, you cut everyone deep. And the project was under your name, so I expected better.If you truly believe that VV might have somehow ended up with large extra profits, and we wouldn't be able to "figure out" what to do with them since we aren't OCR, then that says more about you than it does everyone else. The only reason we weren't sure of the cost is because we generously offered shipping as part of the deal. Thats it. It's an unknown, and it is an unknown here, too. The "transparency" argument is laughable. If anyone ever took issue, i'd happily show them actual receipts and break down every single cost you want. Will that happen here? After this is over, is OCR going to publish a doc detailing every single last one of their costs? I seriously doubt it. Seems to me the only answer we get is "hey we're OCR! trust us!". I would have thought, for someone supposedly running their own label (KNGI) you've have more faith in people than that. but oh well. Otakatt and anyone else: "i haven't heard of it therefore it doesn't matter". Classy. Moving anything other than "yay OCR!" posts to a totally different thread? Extra classy. VV probably wouldn't have been breaking records or anything, that much is true. But, there was concern expressed on where any potential extra costs would've gone. I distinctly remember kicking around ideas for some time on what we would do in that case, and we never did get it nailed down. I made it very clear from the get-go that, since my name was in fact on the album, the way donations were being handled wasn't something I was comfortable with. Kickstarter would've been a great venue to go with it; create some rewards, make it obvious what we're doing and, if necessary, come up with stretch goals and additional rewards if the funding exceeded the target. However, the original idea was for a set amount for the album ($8; which was being misleadingly called a "donation") being taken by a private entity with no stretch goals in place. Even if the OCR discussion about this had never entered the picture, I STILL wouldn't have been comfortable with it, especially since Chernabogue contacted Kinuyo Yamashita before the album was released and her very first concern was whether the album was being sold or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otakatt Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Chernabogue contacted Kinuyo Yamashita before the album was released and her very first concern was whether the album was being sold or not. Oh wow. Trying to sell an album after telling the composer you wouldn't? Now THAT is class, ladies and gents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Show some respect. If you're that uncomfortable with VV, my web server is still available to host it and its website, like I originally intended. I am not uncomfortable with VV and am proud to host it. The way the donations were going to be handled was my only concern. As for the respect thing, maybe you should take your own advice. EDIT: I should also mention that this isn't the first time OCR has done a fundraiser for donations to receive physical copies of albums, but it was done privately. In fact, I think I even suggested the same method for VV, but we never went for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxxDragon Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 It's understandable to be concerned since something has your name on it. But that doesn't mean OCR is the only way it works, because...... Oh wow. Trying to sell an album after telling the composer you wouldn't? Now THAT is class, ladies and gents. This is no different than what you guys do here, all the time. Except maybe you don't contact the original musicians? When someone is worried about it being "sold" they generally mean profit (kind of like the exta 35k from this KS?). There is a strange double speak where when talking about other albums, people snarkily say "under the guide of donations". But this is exactly what OCR does.. and then people say "it's not sales, it's donations!" There would be no profits had in what we were doing. none. period. The album was free online and the hard copies were just for fans who wanted it. Thats all. See the similarities? If she still had issue with it, then we would have dropped it, but she never said that. This is still clouding the issue. I legitimately would like to know why this album was "sold under the guise of donations on KS" at practically 5x the cost of making it. You call that drama bait, I call that a reasonable question. and ACTUALLY. thats my only real issue. Past hstories aside with VV AND Harmony of a Hunter, this is just impossible to explain as far as I can see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 This is no different than what you guys do here, all the time. Really? This is the first time OCR has done a Kickstarter. Usually album printing costs are covered by private donations, and then the extra albums themselves are ALWAYS given away; never sold, and never with a huge banner on the front page that says "send $8 to reserve your copy!" OCR didn't expect this huge level of support and nobody was setting out to line their pockets under false pretenses. They very clearly posted an estimation of approximately how much they would need to do the printing and mailing, with a tiny bit left over for studio work. So is it suddenly OCR's fault that people wanted to show their support and continue to donate despite the earnings trouncing the initial goal? It's pretty clear that they are well past what they will ever need to create the album, yet people are STILL backing the Kickstarter. You can't blame OCR for that, nor can you blame the dozens of other Kickstarters that have also massively and unexpectedly exceeded their original goals. Look, for all you VV guys out there: Do you want to try a Kickstarter? I know the album is almost a year old and the hype has died down, but if you guys want to do a Kickstarter and get some physical copies made up, get over to the KNGI forums and let's talk about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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