Sony PlayStation 4

[Cerrax]

I don't think you can really look at raw numbers and just be able to tell how powerful a console is just by comparing it to a PC. Consoles are (normally) way different hardware wise because they're optimizes and because most of the components are soldered right to the board. The original XBOX had 64MBs of RAM. PS3 has 256MB of RAM and 256MB of vRAM. I wouldn't particularly have called PS3 weak for it's time, and PS4 is light years beyond that.

I'm not saying it's going to be WAY better, because I don't know...and like I said I can't even begin to make a decision until I see performance, but I don't look at 8GBs of RAM on a console and say "Oh that's such a small amount" because PCs have 2-4 times more than that right now.

This. There is no way to make performance judgments about a console without running real software on real hardware. Each console will have a specific way that it runs, and that will affect performance. Especially since the tech specs are so similar between PS4 and Xbox 720, a couple of GB of RAM or a slightly faster GPU may not matter depending on the way the system uses those assets.

Consider that an average PC uses 1 - 1.5 GB of RAM just for the OS. That's obscenely high compared to a console OS, which does a hell of a lot less and uses a hell of a lot less resources. Consoles are very strict about what hardware and software they can use. This makes them somewhat limited, but very efficient. This is why your Xbox 360 with 512 MB of RAM can run a game that may require 1 or 2 GB of RAM on a normal computer.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Cerrax

[Gollgagh]

Never did like the idea of PSN and Xbox Live Arcade exclusives.

In fact, I just hate the whole idea of getting rid of physical storage.

♪~flash memory is still technically physical media~♫

and so is hard drive space for that matter~

[Esperado]

not having backwards compatibility with ps2 games makes some small amount of sense. ps3, makes absolutely no sense. i think most systems should have at least one generation of backwards compatibility, its not like it would hurt them that much to do it. if anything they would still make sales on old games.

but then again, sony isnt the smartest company when it comes to fans if you ask me. they pretty much shot themselves in the face with the psp and the whole psone store thing...

[zircon]

Not having PS2 compatibility did not hurt the PS3 in the long run. Not having PS3 compatibility won't hurt the PS4. The issue is that the PS4 apparently uses a totally different architecture. Soft emulation would be impossible and hard emulation would probably be WAY too expensive, so they picked the best option: don't include it.

[Anorax]

Not having PS2 compatibility did not hurt the PS3 in the long run. Not having PS3 compatibility won't hurt the PS4. The issue is that the PS4 apparently uses a totally different architecture. Soft emulation would be impossible and hard emulation would probably be WAY too expensive, so they picked the best option: don't include it.

PS3 included some form of PS2 compatability, you just had to have a way to plug in the Dualshock 2 into the PS3 - for some reason, it was the controller that was incompatible.

Of course I never tried this, so I don't know if it works or not

[AngelCityOutlaw]

♪~flash memory is still technically physical media~♫

and so is hard drive space for that matter~

It's a lot easier to borrow, lend or trade in a disc though.

[noTuX]

Because backwards compatibility made the PS3 way more expensive than Sony needed it to be, and ultimately was pretty pointless since the emulation wasn't all that great (even on the 60GB launch model, which had the Emotion chip installed).

Backwards compatibility is a nice thing to have, but from a business standpoint, and especially Sony's standpoint, making things BC for games powered by Cell or even further back is ludicrous.

It's not pointless to people that own a bunch of older gen PS games. In this day and age, I'm sure they can find the technology to make the PS4 BC, keep the system stable, and keep the expenses relatively low. That's all I'm saying. I just have a feeling that they wont do that so they can make more money selling digital copies and keep money away from businesses like GameStop. And I can't knock them for that, but at least make it optional (maybe a PS4 'premium' package).

I wouldn't mind paying a little extra for a BC PS4 just as long as it works like it should. Like I said, I don't want to have a bunch of PS systems hooked up to my TVs since I tend to play PS1 games more often than PS3 games. If my PS2 didn't die, I would be playing those games as well.

[Ramaniscence]

PS3 included some form of PS2 compatibility, you just had to have a way to plug in the Dualshock 2 into the PS3 - for some reason, it was the controller that was incompatible.

Of course I never tried this, so I don't know if it works or not

Again, my PS3 has never had PS2 backwards compatibility.

XBOX360 also never had backwards compatibility and they have arguably been the most successful this generation.

Again: I really REALLY don't understand why people are crying so much about backwards compatibility, and I don't expect it to be an issue for this generation of consoles, regardless of the vocal opposition.

A PS1 literally costs like $5 now, I'm sure. A PS2 costs like $40, tops. C'mon.

Edit: Fuck, no SCRATCH THAT. Your PS3 plays PSX games, so just don't get rid of it and there you go.

Let's review for a second:

My DVD player doesn't play VHS tapes.

My SNES doesn't play NES games.

My GameCube doesn't play N64 games.

I mean....really?

Edited February 21, 2013 by Ramaniscence

[AngelCityOutlaw]

Again, my PS3 has never had PS2 backwards compatibility.

XBOX360 also never had backwards compatibility and they have arguably been the most successful this generation.

Again: I really REALLY don't understand why people are crying so much about backwards compatibility, and I don't expect it to be an issue for this generation of consoles, regardless of the vocal opposition.

A PS1 literally costs like $5 now, I'm sure. A PS2 costs like $40, tops. C'mon.

Edit: Fuck, no SCRATCH THAT. Your PS3 plays PSX games, so just don't get rid of it and there you go.

Let's review for a second:

My DVD player doesn't play VHS tapes.

My SNES doesn't play NES games.

My GameCube doesn't play N64 games.

I mean....really?

I thought the 360 did have backward compatibility, but it sucked really bad?

[Arek the Absolute]

disregard

Edited October 12, 2019 by Arek the Absolute

[Brandon Strader]

My ps3 has backward compatibility. It plays on my old disappointment.

[Patrick Burns]

what bothers me is the lack of forwards compatibility. it seems like each time a new generation appears, I suddenly find out about the current generation's lack of forwards compatibility.

and what about sideways compatibility? and don't get me started on vertical compatibility. the only thing console manufactures care about is making a thing that only plays the hundreds of games designed for it.

[Melbu Frahma]

[Hyperion5182]

This is why i left the console wars.

PC ALL THE WAY ALL OTHER FORMS ARE NOTHING BUT SNOT!

[Ramaniscence]

I thought the 360 did have backward compatibility, but it sucked really bad?

I honestly can't remember if it had a REAL backwards compatibility solution that sucked really bad, or if they had some kind of hack job digital emulation system that sucked really bad. All I remember is that it could kind of sort of play Halo and Halo 2 and that it sucked and everyone forgot about it immediately.

[Arek the Absolute]

disregard

Edited October 12, 2019 by Arek the Absolute

[Garpocalypse]

I thought the 360 did have backward compatibility, but it sucked really bad?

They never got around to emulating the games I really cared to play again since they went by how many units of a game were sold. Then they scrapped the whole thing. I still can't play my TJ&E III!!!

[Garrett Williamson]

So out of these 3 things that you said (Even though you said that you disagreed with practically all of it) you made another push for how much we need BC. But here's the thing.... it DOES have a sort of BC. If you already own ps3 games, play it on your ps3. If you don't own a ps3 and want to play ps3 games with your ps4, you are forgetting the cloud streaming service that they are trying to get up online. They said that it was their hope that you would be able to play all ps1,ps2,ps3 games ever made. So no, putting a cell processor in the ps4 would make it too expensive, but they haven't forgotten the desire for BC so they are doing what they can. The only real inconvenience that you can claim out of this is that you wont be able to sell your ps3. And honestly, when the ps4 comes out, you will only be able to get $100 out of it anyway.

And yea, I am very ok with a 2 hour briefing. That's a pretty stupid thing to get hung up on.

Well, never mind I guess you only made 2 responses to the 6. But the fact is, I'm only defending Sony against misinformation, and crybabies. Seriously, the entire internet is going bananas over how awesome that conference was. But in the meantime, you are forgetting that they need to save some stuff for E3. And if you honestly don't think they showed enough at last night's show, then there is no satisfying you.

Ok then. It's just our own different opinions and this was just a conference; not something about gay marriage or anything so let's just leave it at that.

[Tensei]

These graphics aren't particularly impressive, so no go for me.

[Gollgagh]

These graphics aren't particularly impressive

can I roll my eyes yet

[Garrett Williamson]

These graphics aren't particularly impressive, so no go for me.

Do graphics matter all that much?

I mean, I understand how considering how well graphics have been getting over the years you'd expect them to just get better and better, but I personally have never cared for any game because of its graphics. That may add to the effect, but I play a game for the gameplay and the story and potential, not the graphics.

[Crowbar Man]

I updated the first post with a few tidbits:

It is confirmed it does use BluRay (X6) and DVD (X8 ) as forms of media.

It is confirmed it does support PS Move

It is confirmed it does NOT support DS3 :/

The 3D Camera Sensor has been named PlayStation 4 Eye, twin 1280×800px cameras that can either be used together for depth sensing (Kinect style) or one for video recording while the other is used for motion tracking (Eye/Move style).

Some of my ramblings, can probably be ignored:

lastly, 8gb of RAM seems like a lot now, but with the exceptionally low cost of RAM and the serious lacking in the vRAM department, AND with the memory controller on the cpu, i'd have expected to see more to future-proof the system.

The PS3 ran for 6+ years on 256MB RAM (and 256MB Video). This ram is also GDDR5, which is not exactly cheap. a 16x-32x increase in RAM is pretty significant.

why isn't it able to do software emulation a la the C and E models of the PS3

These models were not 100% software, only the EE was emulated the european models. The GS was still included in the hardware. Even trying to emulate the EE caused a drop in compatibility, emulating the GS too would of simply not been possible without doing it on a per game basis like 360, and Sony didn't want to bother without compensation. Hence the HD rereleases and the new PS2 PSN releases!

I say things like that because it is true. The PC is the logical conclusion for people who play videogames

PC is just one venue for those who play videogames. It is a very good avenue admittedly and one I take if a game is on it, but it is not for everybody and some people don't

like limiting themselves to a single venue of gaming

And as for PSP modding, Sony continues to try their damndest to make it so you can't mod - and while I strongly agree with the idea of "It's my fucking PSP, let me do what I want", they obviously don't, and neither do publishers. The openness of the PSP's piracy scared off many developers & publishers from the platform, which is something they want to try and keep off the Vita at all costs. Much to it's massive detriment, the tiny handheld needs every boost it can get.

Every company (Nintendo, Microsoft) prevents modding. Not just Sony. Don't act like this is a Sony exclusive thing. And modding didn't kill off the PSP. The Nintendo DS was just as pirateable/modable, and it still sold software like hotcakes.

I'm waiting for someone to go out and get a PS4 on release and figure out how to jailbreak it and somehow implement BC.

Uhhh I dont think anything is going to really handle fan PS3 emulation anytime soon. Not even the highest end PCs (which can barely handle PS2/GC/Wii), and definately not a PS4.

PS3 included some form of PS2 compatibility

Only early models (included in the hardware). It was removed in later models for cost saving measure.

XBOX360 also never had backwards compatibility and they have arguably been the most successful this generation.

See my previous posts. 360 did have BC. High Level Emulation, where they tweaked emulation on a per game basis since there was no way to really fully emulate the Xbox 1 on the 360. It was a very small library that grew, but never completed, and a lot of it was buggy. They still sell the ones that worked the best digitally on Xbox Live.

Keep in mind, Sony last gen touted backwards compatibility as a part of the PlayStation heritage, since they were the first major modern console (not handheld) vendor to do it. Then when it didn't suit them anymore, they've pulled the plug.

Repeating: I do not expect the next Xbox to be BC either. It is just something to get over at this point. Keep your PS3, unless you want to do that PlayStation Cloud streaming nonsense.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Crowbar Man

[Lyrai]

Every company (Nintendo, Microsoft) prevents modding. Not just Sony. Don't act like this is a Sony exclusive thing. And modding didn't kill off the PSP. The Nintendo DS was just as pirateable/modable, and it still sold software like hotcakes.

I'm not acting like it's a Sony-exclusive thing, don't put words in my mouth.

Sony's the company that took the most active, visible stance against it, in terms of constant patches and statements against it on the PSP. Modding & hacking wasn't the sole murderer of the PSP, but it certainly hurt it a lot more than flash cards ever hurt the DS. And again, with how incredibly easy and cost-effective (It cost nothing, as opposed to a token investment for a flash card on the DS) it was to pirate the PSP, developers fled it, and Sony's trying very very hard to assure them that it's safe to develop for their handheld now, and they won't see staggering piracy rates again.

[Esperado]

i suppose it doesnt hurt it much. BUT I DONT WANNA BUY A PS3 IF I CAN JUST BUY A PS4 WITH PS3 GAMING CAPABILITY. D: im cheap dammit.

[Crowbar Man]

The DS has had a terrible time fighting off moddding/piracy and Nintendo has been actively shutting down and getting goverment involvment with shutting down sellers of the flash cards. They've also modified their firmware/games/hardware here and there to try to be incompatible with flash cards, while the flash card manufacturers have to release firmware / hardware updates to bypass these

In the end, its still pretty easy to just buy a flash card and homebrew/pirate away. Yet, DS remained the popular system. Piracy is just an easy scapegoat, it never effects sales in reality. People who buy games buy them. People who don't, wont.

Nintendo has attempted to patch out exploits (but doing a bad job) multiple times on the Wii. They've actively warned users against modding the Wii in the message board during updates. They also patched out the one exploit on the DSi (which now remains unexploited,). 3DS has yet to be hacked, but if/when it is you can be sure they will actively patch it.

Since the Xbox 1 was hacked to the moon and back (which MS tried to fight with patches), the Xbox 360 was built completely secure both in hardware and in software to prevent it from being exploited. It has had only had one software exploit early in its life cycle which was patched out. Nobody has been able to hack it outside of hardware modifications or DVD firmware hacks, which even that is a constant battle with patches and firmware updates. Any of this will get your console banned if detected, and getting banned even temporarily removed features from the console at one point (MS has since given these features back in a firmware update) and leaves your HDD's save files in an unusable state on any other console.

Seems odd to just single Sony out in the cat and mouse patching game to me. Sony's huge mistake was trying to sue one of the popular homebrew modders that released some of their keys on the PS3. THAT was definately not a good PR move (and caused the whole hacking fiasco). You should never take Linux away from people who are way better at writing software than you are

But either way, none of the big three embrace the homebrew community or the modding/pirate community (for obvious reasons). All of them have, and will continue to try to fight it off. Sony is just both arrogant and incompetent about it

Now, why did the PSP have a rough time starting?

Battery Life.

Hardware Cost.

Slow loading times.

Developers didn't want to spend money making a console quality game if they couldn't charge console quality premium, so the library was pretty small

Reliance on 3rd party software when they don't have a large audience to lure 3rd parties in.

The DS had a familiar architecture shared with the GBA, where PSP you had to start from scratch with dev tools.

The DS brought new things to the table (touch screen, mic, even the folding of the system was used in games), where the PSP was just "Woah Graphics!"

Nintendo was also still the undisputed king of handhelds at the time, and typically took down any competitors with ease. The fact Sony didn't drop out of the race INSTANTLY is still amazing.

Its silly to just go "OH IT WAS MODDERS/PIRACY!" when they all have that issue.

When did the PSP start picking up?

Sony kept pushing it. Price started dropping. Cost of game development for a PS2-level quality game was becoming less and less expensive. Sony started releasing PSP<->PS2 tools so hey if all else fails you can port your PSP game to PS2. And now to even PS3. DS started showing its limitations more and more and people wanted something more after a while. 3rd party companies started making games worth while to play on it. etc etc

Edited February 22, 2013 by Crowbar Man