Super Smash Bros Brawl

[Jam Stunna]

what. how does one meteor cancel, that sounds like it would be immensely useful.

After a meteor smash (ex. Roy's dair, Samus' dair, etc.), if you time it just right you can jump or up-b out of it, and you can make it back to the stage. I'm not exactly sure about the timing, because it's pretty specific. However, you cannot meteor cancel true spikes. As far as I know, the only true spikes in the game are Marth's dair and Falco's dair (those were made into meteor smashes in the PAL version, so they can be meteor canceled in the PAL version).

Salluz, Roy is nothing like Marth. He's slow, has no range, has no aerial game, horrendous recovery and no combos to speak of outside of fair => dtilt => nair. If you want to pick up one of them, play Marth, as he's vastly superior to Roy in every way imaginable. I contend that Roy is one of the worst characters in the game.

Marth, I think, is the second most forgiving of the top tier characters (Sheik being first). He doesn't really require that much tech skill to make him a winner; pretty much the hardest thing to learn for Marth is his chaingrab on Fox/Falco. Everything about him is retardedly good, and it takes far less of an investment to play well with him than, say, Fox, Falco, Falcon and even Peach.

Also, SBR has released their "final" Melee tier list:

Top

Fox 9.9

Marth 9.9

Sheik 9.7

Falco 9.2

High

Peach 8.4

Captain Falcon 8.0

Jigglypuff 8.0

Ice Climbers 7.9

Middle

Samus 6.8

Dr. Mario 6.2

Ganondorf 6.0

Luigi 5.8

Donkey Kong 5.4

Mario 5.3

Low

Link 4.7

Pikachu 4.3

Young Link 4.2

Roy 3.6

Zelda 3.0

Game and Watch 3.0

Bottom

Ness 2.5

Yoshi 2.5

Bowser 2.2

Mewtwo 1.8

Kirby 1.5

Pichu 1.2

[Scufo]

How do you have a final tier list with a constantly changing metagame?

Heh, Mewtwo's not rock bottom anymore. And oh man, Zelda is low now. Score.

[Broken]

you need to stop practicing on the temple

it will do you no good at all except practicing roof wall teching but seriously stop

go to fd and spend like an hour practicing wave dashing

dont question just do it

also your ness needs a whole lot of work

you leave way too many windows open to attack where yyou just stand there

google video/youtube simna if you want to see an insane ness

it will take you a long long time to be on par with him but if you practice and dont take what we say in stride then you may just get there

aka me extending the olive branch so TAKE IT

I love it when Arek is civil.

[Jam Stunna]

Oh man Arek, I was playing with Luigi in Melee today, he's SO good and fun. Too bad his recovery is beyond terrible.

Here's one of my favorite matches ever. It features Ken, the current Evo Melee champion of the world (and current contestant on Survivor), playing someone other than his standard character, Marth. He's playing against Wobbles, the other premier IC player besides Chu Dat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsnQWIFG91w

[Dhsu]

WTF @ the IC grab glitch. Never seen that before.

[Jam Stunna]

WTF @ the IC grab glitch. Never seen that before.

That's Wobbling, invented by Wobbles. What you do is have Popo tap neutral A, and have Nana tap ftilt. If you time it right, the opponent is stuck in perpetual hitstun, and can't break out of the grab. Rinse and repeat until sufficient damage is done to finish with a dsmash/fsmash.

[Global-Trance]

you need to stop practicing on the temple

it will do you no good at all except practicing roof wall teching but seriously stop

go to fd and spend like an hour practicing wave dashing

dont question just do it

also your ness needs a whole lot of work

you leave way too many windows open to attack where yyou just stand there

google video/youtube simna if you want to see an insane ness

it will take you a long long time to be on par with him but if you practice and dont take what we say in stride then you may just get there

aka me extending the olive branch so TAKE IT

Eh, wavedashing is a useful tool and all but the majority of the tech-only players can't even use wavedashing and L-Cancel that well anyways. Wavedashing made so many people think they were good when all it did was make them easier to kill since wavedashing leaves you wide open. I remember this one guy talk trash to me at some scrub tournament I decided to crash for fun saying how good he was and then I just four stocked him in the finals lmao. Wavedash couldn't save him.

If you learn wavedash, at least invest in some time to use it wisely.

[Bigfoot]

^This

Just sliding around and wavedashing with no purpose does not make you better.

[Antipode]

Yeah jam, I recently played melee again and played as luigi (my old main, along side c.falc) and it was just refreshing how punchy and agile he is compared to Brawl.

[Arek the Absolute]

^This

Just sliding around and wavedashing with no purpose does not make you better.

its better to know it than to not

after learning how to use it you obviously practice APPLICATION

one cannot apply what they to not know

fgt

[Broken]

wavedash back to foward smash is still the bane of agressive types everywhere. I can't beleieve how many times I've eaten Spamus' f-smash because of that tactic. I use it too, sometimes but it just seems too obvious to be effective. Apparently that is not the case, though.

[HideousBeing]

I'd rather not start a new thread, so I'll just ask this in here. Does anyone know if arranging your own songs will be an option in Wii Music? Or is that as yet unconfirmed?

[Gollgagh]

I'd rather not start a new thread, so I'll just ask this in here. Does anyone know if arranging your own songs will be an option in Wii Music? Or is that as yet unconfirmed?

the Wii thread is here: http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5165

[Salluz]

Wow, I had to get rid of my ghetto, kodak-recorded, home-made Kirby vs Ness fight; lawn mower was roaring in the background.

[Global-Trance]

L-Cancel hack made for Brawl. I tested it out tonight and it's legit. The window of timing needs to be a lot more closer to the ground than the hack currently has it set but this is pretty legit. Wow.

[BardicKnowledge]

^It's cool that you can add wavedashing and L-Canceling back into Brawl -- but isn't that kind of missing the point? Aside from the novelty, I feel that if you need those things to be good, you should be playing Melee. This isn't a knock specifically against you, GT -- I just don't see any usefulness to the concept.

For instance, tournaments (hopefully) will still be vanilla Brawl, so the wavedashing is probably not going to help in the long run too much.

[Broken]

^It's cool that you can add wavedashing and L-Canceling back into Brawl -- but isn't that kind of missing the point? Aside from the novelty, I feel that if you need those things to be good, you should be playing Melee. This isn't a knock specifically against you, GT -- I just don't see any usefulness to the concept.

For instance, tournaments (hopefully) will still be vanilla Brawl, so the wavedashing is probably not going to help in the long run too much.

That's a good point. I want to see what this hack looks like just out of curiosity, though.

[Triad Orion]

While I applaud the ingenuity of the hackers to allow those moves in Brawl, I think it's rather unnecessary as well. Brawl is a different game. It's pretty clear that Sakurai wanted it to be removed from Melee as far as it can and it's balanced to keep that in mind.

And really, if these things are really so desired, go back to Melee where they were part of the meta-game.

On a side note, I don't want to be an asshole, but I'm going to echo the question of why Melee has become the topic du-jour of the Brawl thread? Is it possible to change the thread name to "Super Smash Bros" (Thus expanding the scope) or make another Melee thread, considering the game is obviously still relevant amongst a number of members in the community?

[HideousBeing]

Anyone who's interested, here's a couple of my Wario matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUD3GoAa8is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35gPIylicXU

[Jam Stunna]

That was good stuff, HideousBeing. What I would suggest is to be more mobile with your Wario, because I saw alot of standing around. One of the things that makes him such a good character is his aerial mobility. You used your second jump pretty early in the first match alot, and you came in over Snake's head, which is a bad place to be. Keep that second jump and use short-hopped fairs so that you can get in and out quickly. Also I didn't see you use Wario's uair much in the first match, but you did more in the second one. And spam Wario's fsmash; it's so broken and surprisingly difficult to punish (also the super-armor protects you too, and gives you an advantage). Lastly, use Wario's Bite more. I see that you used it here and there (and to great effect against Snake's recovery the second match), but since it has grab properties and insane priority, it's something that you should throw out there every chance you get.

[IbanezNinja]

I've heard a lot of people talk about how bad these brawl players are for relying so much on wavedashing that they hacked it back in the game but it really is less about neededing l-canceling and wavedashing to be good and more about making the game actually fun.

Went to a tournament on saturday with 64 or so people and I got rocked . Honestly I don't know what happened.

1: Inui ($469.00) - MetaKnight

2: Forward ($134.00) - Snake/Pit

3: AlphaZealot ($67.00) - Diddy Kong

4: Dook - Snake/Lucario

5: Joey Fury - Snake

5: Quivo - Toon Link

7: Coma - Diddy Kong

7: Black Guile - Marth

9: Delta Punk

9: Sonic the Hedgedawg

9: McWooty - Fox

9: Tyr

...

49.me :C :C :C

The people in bold are who I went to the tournament with and the last two local tournaments we went to I put Black Guile out and we both practiced the same amount for this tournament (not at all), so the only thing I can think of is to go back to playing Falco cause Game and Watch worked out roughly zero percent good for me.

[Global-Trance]

Brawl is a different game. It's pretty clear that Sakurai wanted it to be removed from Melee as far as it can and it's balanced to keep that in mind.

Brawl is clearly not balanced at all.

Though I do not see the Melee mechanics slapped onto Brawl being universally accepted everywhere, I think having this option is great. I can play in both ways. I just think it's fun to see Melee mechanics on the new characters. What I DO like is that now all the really really clunky characters have a chance to keep up with lagless characters like Metaknight. Think of it this way. Even with these mechanics, all the auto cancel characters still get to auto cancel all their aerial moves but everyone else still needs to learn to cancel their moves? It's still not even fair but at least it's a step in the right direction for competitive play, because Brawl is seriously not anywhere closed to being balanced. This doesn't make it any less fun for people obviously, but you can't say it's anywhere close to perfect.

As for questioning the usefulness of all this wavedash and L-cancel stuff? Different/less predictable approaches, less camping, more creative combo potential. Here are some vids.

S-Cancel only

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRHA4aqVJ2Y

Wavedash and S-Cancel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E80xM08TQM8

S-Cancel is the one being tested out right now. What it does is allows players to shield during any of the lag recovery frames after landing during aerial attacks. It removes all the lag once you shield so you can tap shield to cancel all the lag. There IS a real L-cancel hack being worked on where it mimics Melee exactly which cuts the lag in half. It's not perfect yet as the window of timing to L-cancel is nowhere near the ground thus feeling unnatural. I've tested both and it adds a bit of spice to the game, making it more chaotic. If the real L-cancel hack gets fixed to 100% then it'll be the best choice among the hacks. This S-cancel business with ZERO lag is a bit much.

[HalcyonSpirit]

Alright, I was hoping the results would've been posted by now, but since they aren't, I'll just give you a rundown of what I remember on what happened to me at the little tourney on Friday:

Matches were 3-stock, best of three. I played as Lucario in all my matches (aside from the very last one).

First Round

Fight 1: Final Destination

I got randomly put against a decent player for my first round; he played Wolf. The first match I clearly lost; I barely took his second stock. When he killed me the third time, it was because I tripped in front of him right when he was charging up a smash attack. Oh well, I was going to lose anyway, so it didn't bother me as much.

Fight 2: Battlefield

This time I took him to town. I had learned some of his tendencies by the time the first fight ended, and so I did quite well this time. He got my second stock about 10 seconds before I got his third.

Fight 3: Final Destination

I am still upset about how this match turned out. This fight was pretty evenly matched between us through most of it. We both got each other's first and second lives fairly close together, so we were about even when we were down to our last lives. At this point, either I turned it up a notch or he started getting sloppy, but I got him to about 150% before I got to 100% (I just couldn't seem to land the killing move). I landed a combo of sorts and was going for that killing strike, and I would've gotten it... but then I tripped. Again. Right into a smash attack that killed me.

Thus, I lost the fight and the match. On to the Loser's Bracket for me!

First Round

This match isn't worth describing; I pretty much destroyed my opponent here. He played Toon Link. I had two stocks left in both fights (lost one each fight because of me being stupid and letting myself get hit by that aerial down-stab of his).

Second Round

This match was close. My opponent played Samus the first fight and Marth the second. I won both fights (played on Smashville and Battlefield), but not by much. In both instances, I was down to my last stock when he had two left and was still at a low percentage. I'm not quite sure how I managed to pull it off (twice, even), but I managed myself in the clutch fairly well, I guess, and played smarter than him at that point forward. I was at a very high percentage each time, but I won both fights. Surprise surprise.

Third Round

Complete and utter destruction. My opponent was one of the best players attending (and could've won the tourney if he hadn't gone and dashed off the stage twice in a single match!). He played Wolf. Mind you, I knew going into this tourney that I had significant trouble fighting Wolf. The fact that this guy was so good meant I probably wasn't going to win (barring him throwing himself off the edge twice again). Still, I played the first fight as Lucario and only barely managed to kill him twice (early on; from that point forward he knew my moves and destroyed me). I knew I probably wasn't going to be able to kill him a single time the second fight if I played as Lucario, so I switched to Zero Suit Samus. I had a little more success training against Wolf as ZSS, so I figured, why not? In the end I got destroyed, but I got 50% on his second stock.

All-in-all, I think it was a decent showing for me, considering I only picked up the game seriously about two weeks ago.

[Nohbody]

I've heard a lot of people talk about how bad these brawl players are for relying so much on wavedashing that they hacked it back in the game but it really is less about neededing l-canceling and wavedashing to be good and more about making the game actually fun.

Went to a tournament on saturday with 64 or so people and I got rocked . Honestly I don't know what happened.

1: Inui ($469.00) - MetaKnight<<GODAMIT

2: Forward ($134.00) - Snake/Pit<<GODAMIT

3: AlphaZealot ($67.00) - Diddy Kong<<GODAMIT

4: Dook - Snake/Lucario<<GODAMIT

5: Joey Fury - Snake<<GODAMIT

5: Quivo - Toon Link

7: Coma - Diddy Kong

7: Black Guile - Marth<<GODAMIT

9: Delta Punk

9: Sonic the Hedgedawg

9: McWooty - Fox

9: Tyr

...

49.me :C :C :C

The people in bold are who I went to the tournament with and the last two local tournaments we went to I put Black Guile out and we both practiced the same amount for this tournament (not at all), so the only thing I can think of is to go back to playing Falco cause Game and Watch worked out roughly zero percent good for me.

I hate this. when I face metaknights and snakes in tourneys, it makes me want to sit the user down and lecture the users on not being a cheap douschebag. roughly 3/4s of mk users I know havent even played any kirby titles with mk in it.

I think that in order to main a character in brawl you need to have beaten at least one of their games. This allows you to appreciate them for more than just the fact that they are really good characters. Lucas is my main and I havent beaten mother 3 yet but I am working on it.

the reason I say this is that mk users should have to beat mk in the kirby samurai minigame. that would cut mk users by 9/10s.

Marth is a fag, snake isnt as bad because its tricky to use him, diddy needs a new down b. playing him in fd is absolute crap

[cobaltstarfire]

I can't think of the right words to respond to Nohbody, but if I could they wouldn't be very positive...