Super Smash Bros Brawl

[Nohbody]

i love you

[The Derrit]

Hey jam i heard you met a couple of my friends brendan and lenny this past weekend, lenny played luigi and brendan was a cfalc, bigger guy, booming voice. I used to play with those two all the time, if you remember who they are how'd they do

i miss the old days of tourneys

[HideousBeing]

the reason I say this is that mk users should have to beat mk in the kirby samurai minigame.

That was stinking hard.

Edit: Thanks for the advice JS, I'll be sure to keep it in mind.

[Salluz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E80xM08TQM8

You know, I have always had a bias against King DeDeDe since I've played Kirby Superstar. You have now kindled the fumes of prejudice that I have against DeDeDe. I have seen a tier list saying that Deed was a top-tier character, if I am not mistaken, but... well, maybe he's only good against certain people because I've seen him get whooped so many times it isn't even funny. In fact, some kid tried to use him against my Sonic... I never got hit + I wasn't that good.

Who is Deed good against? Slow characters? Little weak ones that aren't fast? I'll look online to see how and when he wins.

Tournament.

Simply said, practice makes perfect. I forgot Wolf's rank on the tier list, but I liked using him a lot (seems to be good + it actually takes skill to use him). Basically a stronger-yet-slower fox; brings that pain, and his style makes up for his lack of speed.

My theory called "Cancellation": There is this rule about certain characters not being able to beat others (unless somebody sucks). I don't know if I saw an impossible situation in your circumstance (i.e. Fox vs Mewtwo (Melee), which I've heard it's possible to beat Fox with Mewtwo, but with a very hard-to-do method), but for the most part, there are those few who just cannot beat certain characters (even if "just cannot" = 90-99.9% chance).

I found it funny that every time someone uses C . Falcon against Mewtwo (and only if you're good with Mewtwo because being horrible w/ Mewtwo = give up), the result is ROFL. You would think that C. Falcon would dominate b/c of his speed and strength, but he becomes predictable. His cancel isn't that fast (correct me if I am wrong), he has no projectile moves, jumps suck, tends to be open a lot (defense isn't as good as Fox, Sheik, Marth or Falco, the top-tier characters for Melee), and as a result, he ends up being whooped the same way a normal pokemon (we're going back, y'all!) would be challenged and / or canceled out by a psychic.

(newbie Joke removed)

Note to ALL noobs: B moves are specials, whether or not they are killing moves. Even if they are killing moves, they do not get the job done 100% of the time.

Question: I know that the Master Hand is in Brawl, but what about the Crazy Hand? Are there any more new top villians? On a side note, I remember when I first played both hands and couldn't win. Not a problem now, depending on what character I use.

Jam: Yeah, Roy is slower, and I knew off-the-back that his recovery sucked in comparison to Marth. He runs fast, but his moves are more slowly anticipated.

[HideousBeing]

You know, I have always had a bias against King DeDeDe since I've played Kirby Superstar. You have now kindled the fumes of prejudice that I have against DeDeDe. I have seen a tier list saying that Deed was a top-tier character, if I am not mistaken, but... well, maybe he's only good against certain people because I've seen him get whooped so many times it isn't even funny. In fact, some kid tried to use him against my Sonic... I never got hit + I wasn't that good.

Who is Deed good against? Slow characters? Little weak ones that aren't fast? I'll look online to see how and when he wins.

Simply said, practice makes perfect. I forgot Wolf's rank on the tier list, but I liked using him a lot (seems to be good + it actually takes skill to use him). Basically a stronger-yet-slower fox; brings that pain, and his style makes up for his lack of speed.

My theory called "Cancellation": There is this rule about certain characters not being able to beat others (unless somebody sucks). I don't know if I saw an impossible situation in your circumstance (i.e. Fox vs Mewtwo (Melee), which I've heard it's possible to beat Fox with Mewtwo, but with a very hard-to-do method), but for the most part, there are those few who just cannot beat certain characters (even if "just cannot" = 90-99.9% chance).

I found it funny that every time someone uses C . Falcon against Mewtwo (and only if you're good with Mewtwo because being horrible w/ Mewtwo = give up), the result is ROFL. You would think that C. Falcon would dominate b/c of his speed and strength, but he becomes predictable. His cancel isn't that fast (correct me if I am wrong), he has no projectile moves, jumps suck, tends to be open a lot (defense isn't as good as Fox, Sheik, Marth or Falco, the top-tier characters for Melee), and as a result, he ends up being whooped the same way a normal pokemon (we're going back, y'all!) would be challenged and / or canceled out by a psychic.

Quit, spamming, n00b(!): C. Falcon's moves have to be mastered. I know a friend who loves him ("Show your moves" taunting everytime he knocks you away), but he (skill-lessly and unnecessarily) spams his B-moves. Who the hell does that? I know that he can combo well with his B-moves, but his A-moves, like most other characters (or any character, really), gets the job done.

Note to ALL noobs: B moves are specials, whether or not they are killing moves. Even if they are killing moves, they do not get the job done 100% of the time.

Question: I know that the Master Hand is in Brawl, but what about the Crazy Hand? Are there any more new top villians? On a side note, I remember when I first played both hands and couldn't win. Not a problem now, depending on what character I use.

Jam: Yeah, Roy is slower, and I knew off-the-back that his recovery sucked in comparison to Marth. He runs fast, but his moves are more slowly anticipated.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh lord. Where do you begin with this post?

[The Derrit]

You know, I have always had a bias against King DeDeDe since I've played Kirby Superstar. You have now kindled the fumes of prejudice that I have against DeDeDe. I have seen a tier list saying that Deed was a top-tier character, if I am not mistaken, but... well, maybe he's only good against certain people because I've seen him get whooped so many times it isn't even funny. In fact, some kid tried to use him against my Sonic... I never got hit + I wasn't that good.

Who is Deed good against? Slow characters? Little weak ones that aren't fast? I'll look online to see how and when he wins.

Dedede is good against a ton of people. Your experience =/= enough to say he is bad. when he is actually quite good

EDIT: HideousBeing this is where to begin. you take the rest.

[Global-Trance]

*deep, heavy exhale*

[Dhsu]

I have a friend who was absolutely devastated that they took out Mewtwo in Brawl. He absolutely swears that his neutral air and teleport mindgames make him invincible.

Edit: Salluz, I'm going to talk to you like a friend and give you some honest advice: for your own sake, don't post as if you are a veteran or expert at something. Questions like "what's so great about Dedede" (answered by Derrit) and "Is Crazy Hand in Brawl" (the answer is yes; you'll find out later that he is being controlled by an even more powerful being) are fine, and people will gladly give you what you need. But if you try to give tips to the "n00bs," you just sound arrogant and end up making a fool of yourself, because for the most part your advice is redundant at best and plain wrong at worst. As the cliche goes, if people want your advice, they will ask for it.

[cobaltstarfire]

It IS kind of fun to be able to teleport and stay in one place or end up behind people reliable, the first few times anyway.

Although I'm not sure how "invincible" that makes him...

[sabrigami]

sucks, tried to play the game yesterday and anytime i tried to use the brawl mode my wii couldn't read the disk . i've read it's very sensitive to dust and stuff so when i cleaned it it worked longer but the the same thing. don't really know how to clean it more than i have...

[Jam Stunna]

sucks, tried to play the game yesterday and anytime i tried to use the brawl mode my wii couldn't read the disk . i've read it's very sensitive to dust and stuff so when i cleaned it it worked longer but the the same thing. don't really know how to clean it more than i have...

Do you have a smoker in your house? I've heard that the particulate matter from smoke can really affect a Wii's ability to read discs.

[Nohbody]

i miss mewtwo too man that nair was so much fun, and he had this awesome grace about him. as someone who caught him using an ultraball in pokemon blue, i firmly believe that they did a great job with him in melee. lucario is cool and unique and all, but who the eff is he?

and i lold

[Arek the Absolute]

You know, I have always had a bias against King DeDeDe since I've played Kirby Superstar. You have now kindled the fumes of prejudice that I have against DeDeDe. I have seen a tier list saying that Deed was a top-tier character, if I am not mistaken, but... well, maybe he's only good against certain people because I've seen him get whooped so many times it isn't even funny. In fact, some kid tried to use him against my Sonic... I never got hit + I wasn't that good.

Who is Deed good against? Slow characters? Little weak ones that aren't fast? I'll look online to see how and when he wins.

Simply said, practice makes perfect. I forgot Wolf's rank on the tier list, but I liked using him a lot (seems to be good + it actually takes skill to use him). Basically a stronger-yet-slower fox; brings that pain, and his style makes up for his lack of speed.

My theory called "Cancellation": There is this rule about certain characters not being able to beat others (unless somebody sucks). I don't know if I saw an impossible situation in your circumstance (i.e. Fox vs Mewtwo (Melee), which I've heard it's possible to beat Fox with Mewtwo, but with a very hard-to-do method), but for the most part, there are those few who just cannot beat certain characters (even if "just cannot" = 90-99.9% chance).

I found it funny that every time someone uses C . Falcon against Mewtwo (and only if you're good with Mewtwo because being horrible w/ Mewtwo = give up), the result is ROFL. You would think that C. Falcon would dominate b/c of his speed and strength, but he becomes predictable. His cancel isn't that fast (correct me if I am wrong), he has no projectile moves, jumps suck, tends to be open a lot (defense isn't as good as Fox, Sheik, Marth or Falco, the top-tier characters for Melee), and as a result, he ends up being whooped the same way a normal pokemon (we're going back, y'all!) would be challenged and / or canceled out by a psychic.

Quit, spamming, n00b(!): C. Falcon's moves have to be mastered. I know a friend who loves him ("Show your moves" taunting everytime he knocks you away), but he (skill-lessly and unnecessarily) spams his B-moves. Who the hell does that? I know that he can combo well with his B-moves, but his A-moves, like most other characters (or any character, really), gets the job done.

Note to ALL noobs: B moves are specials, whether or not they are killing moves. Even if they are killing moves, they do not get the job done 100% of the time.

Question: I know that the Master Hand is in Brawl, but what about the Crazy Hand? Are there any more new top villians? On a side note, I remember when I first played both hands and couldn't win. Not a problem now, depending on what character I use.

Jam: Yeah, Roy is slower, and I knew off-the-back that his recovery sucked in comparison to Marth. He runs fast, but his moves are more slowly anticipated.

....

i....

what?

[Hector]

I heard that in Brawl, if you rotate Master Hand through a 4th dimension you get Crazy Hand. I even heard the same is true in reverse. But I'm sure that that's just crazy talk.

[Nohbody]

if you beat the game with every character in classinc on very hard in under 20 minutes yu can play as master hand

[Dhsu]

His Final Smash involves stroking opponents in inappopriate ways. It doesn't do physical damage, but the emotional scars never go away. It's also unblockable.

[BardicKnowledge]

Brawl is clearly not balanced at all.

Definitely agreed -- at least at the moment, the metagame hasn't progressed far enough with each character. We don't have a Brawl equivalent of how Chudat's Ice Climbers changed the IC game, for instance.

Though I do not see the Melee mechanics slapped onto Brawl being universally accepted everywhere, I think having this option is great. I can play in both ways. I just think it's fun to see Melee mechanics on the new characters.

I'm not opposed to having some fun with this with friends -- in fact, if anyone going to MAGFest is bringing a Wii (Atmuh?), I'd love to see it. It's the idea of changing the standard ruleset to a mod that isn't standard by definition. I love the Item Standard list in Jack Kieser's SWF thread -- but I realize that even if I prefer to play that way, it should be at best an alternate setting, not the standard.

What I DO like is that now all the really really clunky characters have a chance to keep up with lagless characters like Metaknight. Think of it this way. Even with these mechanics, all the auto cancel characters still get to auto cancel all their aerial moves but everyone else still needs to learn to cancel their moves? It's still not even fair but at least it's a step in the right direction for competitive play, because Brawl is seriously not anywhere closed to being balanced. This doesn't make it any less fun for people obviously, but you can't say it's anywhere close to perfect.

As for questioning the usefulness of all this wavedash and L-cancel stuff? Different/less predictable approaches, less camping, more creative combo potential.

What do you think of the project mentioned by SamuraiPanda to create a balance patch for Brawl? Would you prefer that to an all-out physics change?

Edit: In case this comes off the wrong way, I'm a total scrub and am happy to acknowledge it. I'm just trying to pick the brains of those better at the game than I am.

[Jam Stunna]

I think that the idea of hacking a game (any game)to make it more balanced is entirely ridiculous. And apparently, SamuraiPanda is too busy hacking the game to realize the hypocrisy he represents.

Here's the full thread that the post comes from, in case you have alot of time on your hands:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200144

[Dunther]

I think that Brawl characters are more balanced than Melee ones, but there are so many things that is impossible to tell who is better than who.

Anyway, I miss MewTwo, it was a cool character.

[HideousBeing]

I agree with SamuraiPanda's statement that Brawl is its own game entirely, and doesn't deserve to be compared to Melee.

Even, however, as a stand alone game, Brawl is not acceptably competitive. I agree, JS, with your statement that it doesn't require enough skill to be play well. I never thought I'd be saying this, but apparently, there is such a thing as too noob friendly. (I used to say the opposite in defense of SC II being more noob friendly with everything being automated, claiming that there would only be more room for the pros to excel at micro.) But that's a story for another thread. It's just not rewarding enough to become proficient at Brawl. I worked darn hard to learn to apply AT's in Melee, and it was bloody worth it in the end.

What I hate the most is that this is exactly what Sakurai wanted. He didn't want the game to be competitive. He wanted it to be easy for everyone. -A party game. Something to laugh about. Nothing to be serious about. He did a bloody good job, blast him.

Am I generalizing? Sure. Is there a skill gap in Brawl? Absolutely. It's just not enough.

Why do people still attempt to play Brawl competitively then? Here are my theories:

-They refuse to let Sakurai have the satisfaction that he succeeded. This was my problem before I capitulated.

-They are just too bored with Melee metagame and desperately want something new, not wanting to believe Brawl is as bad as it is.

-They just stopped caring, or, in the case of newbies (respectfully), are ignorant of Brawl's fail.

[Global-Trance]

Definitely agreed -- at least at the moment, the metagame hasn't progressed far enough with each character. We don't have a Brawl equivalent of how Chudat's Ice Climbers changed the IC game, for instance.

I don't even think it's about the metagame. Right now it's so imbalanced that tournaments are now escalating to just Metaknight vs. Metaknight at the end, because Metaknight currently has no counterpick characters other than another Metaknight. BORING.

I'm not opposed to having some fun with this with friends -- in fact, if anyone going to MAGFest is bringing a Wii (Atmuh?), I'd love to see it. It's the idea of changing the standard ruleset to a mod that isn't standard by definition. I love the Item Standard list in Jack Kieser's SWF thread -- but I realize that even if I prefer to play that way, it should be at best an alternate setting, not the standard.

Yes this is what I'm saying. I like these options as another way. It doesn't have to be a standard or anything. Especially not for those who don't want it.

What do you think of the project mentioned by SamuraiPanda to create a balance patch for Brawl? Would you prefer that to an all-out physics change?

Edit: In case this comes off the wrong way, I'm a total scrub and am happy to acknowledge it. I'm just trying to pick the brains of those better at the game than I am.

I think the project to completely rebalance Brawl is pretty much a fool's errand. It's really unnecessary. I wouldn't protest if there was a lot more balance but really I think they should let it be. The game has a lot of options, with or without hacks, to adjust a very large majority as to how they want to play things. If they do somehow get it going, I will still check it out, but really it's too ambitious and almost a waste of time.

[defender!!]

hey guys! remember me! the scrubby dedede that got all upset that IC's ruined him

anyway

i've gotten over it since, obviously. simply put, i had no experience in the matchup and i guess i also had some preconceived notions of honor, whatever. it was my first tourney and i made some dumb decisions, got all upset and got better after directly apologizing to the IC's player i was such a jerk to.

in any case, i'm no longer going to standard tourneys. they're just not my thing. instead, a friend and i are running small, extremely centralized tournaments that attempt to bridge the gap between casual and competitive. there's always been a group of about 15 - 20 smash players in our area of varying skill levels, all looking for competition but for some reason or another turned off by the tourney scene.

we don't go by standard rules and have an extremely low entry fee (five dollars for our most recent ones, compared to the $30 for each tourney around here) and bizarre stipulations (next month we're considering a tourney wherein everyone submits one created stage, we compile them all and random all matches). this month's tourney involves a team setup wherein three people are grouped at random, matches are conducted in a "round" format with special advantages called "gimmes"...things like forcing everyone to go random, switching out characters, players, etc. these formats change every month, with a standard HUGE tourney every six months approaches the competition more traditionally.

pro players can come if they play by our rules, the biggest of which being no infinites. right now we're holding off on inviting some of the better players in our area simply so we can cultivate this tiny community of equally skilled players...eventually it'll be more open and hopefully we can expand.

my point isn't to advertise these tourneys, per se. i also don't mean to say that the entire smash community should focus on making the tourneys more like this, because they shouldn't. there's a way brawl can be fun and inclusive while still being viable in a competitive atmosphere...it definitely won't work for everyone, but it's certainly working for us. there's a big turnout each tourney and it feels more like a big get-together than an actual balls-out tournament. money matches are a big deal, as is betting on matches.

i should say though, i wasn't around for the melee scene so i'm not entirely sure how impossibly fantastic it was.

[Triad Orion]

I'd have to agree with Dunther, at least as far as casual play is concerned. Your average Joe isn't going to be arsed to learn how to chain-grab with Dedede or Up-Tilt spam with Snake. B-Spamming Metaknights are common, but amongst casuals, it can be dealt with, either with items (gasp!) or for them to just make a mistake.

I know this viewpoint won't win me any friends here in the Smash thread, but frankly, I find Brawl to be a more fun game than Melee ever was. You'll all probably think I'm an idiot for enjoying the game as a spastic, item-filled chaos-fest, but hey, it's how I like the game.

Personally, I think the argument that places blame on Sakurai for expecting people to play the game by his design philosophies are ludicrous. How many linear games have everyone in here played? Those are far worse about "played the way the designer wants you to" than Brawl could ever hope to be, given the level of customization you have. Sakurai wants his game to be played within a certain frame of mind, but not so much that he shackles you to a single paradigm. Yeah, I can understand that you're all pretty miffed about a developer turning his back on you, but his design philosophies cater to the many rather than the few. It's pretty common in the industry.

Sorry if I've pissed anyone off, but I just had to speak up on this. Keep in mind that even if Sakurai's design philosophies don't agree with your own, they're still valid and in fact, reasonable.

[Jam Stunna]

I think that's great. As much as I bitch and moan, it's all about fun in the end. As long as you're having fun, then more power to you.

[defender!!]

i think what's so bizarre is that most of our "group" grew up on the N64 smash and were all extremely good at it. when melee came out we played it for hours on end but never really reached that top shelf, which is probably why we're so happy with brawl. the short answer is that we never got spoiled. i'd contend (in an extremely offensive and gross generalization) that brawl's major supporters are people just like us.

that's not to say that we're huge sakurai fanboys; i don't think i know a person on this earth that actually enjoys the inclusion of tripping. but the flexibility of these small locally-grown tourneys really lends itself well to the imbalance of brawl. we can just decide to ban metaknight on a whim and know people would still come, because they're not doing so for the money--they're doing it for the friendly atmosphere and the fun of it.