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The Damned

Left 4 Dead 2 - now $6.80 on Steam!

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Sorry, nothing from those impressions strikes me as sequel worthy. New weapons, enemies, maps? All of that stuff are just incremental improvements. All of that can be added with an expansion pack. The longevity of my game is being reduced to one year because Valve is rushing out a sequel? I'm not pleased, at all. I'm hesitant to pay full price for multiplayer-only games in the first place because I genuinely feel that they are lacking in content compared to most other games.

Until now, Valve hasn't released a "full blown sequel" that is only an incremental improvement, and I'm disappointed.

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Sorry, nothing from those impressions strikes me as sequel worthy. New weapons, enemies, maps? All of that stuff are just incremental improvements. All of that can be added with an expansion pack. The longevity of my game is being reduced to one year because Valve is rushing out a sequel? I'm not pleased, at all.

Until now, Valve hasn't released a "full blown sequel" that is only an incremental improvement, and I'm disappointed.

This is absolutely true. Sure, all that talk about the AI director's improved intelligence sounds impressive at first, but what's it really gonna be like in practice? I'm almost certain that it'll hardly be noticeably different in-game. It'll be just as frenzied and chaotic as always and it won't fundamentally change the core experience. It's just too soon. It really is. All true gaming sequels take time, end of story!

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Sorry, nothing from those impressions strikes me as sequel worthy. New weapons, enemies, maps? All of that stuff are just incremental improvements. All of that can be added with an expansion pack. The longevity of my game is being reduced to one year because Valve is rushing out a sequel? I'm not pleased, at all. I'm hesitant to pay full price for multiplayer-only games in the first place because I genuinely feel that they are lacking in content compared to most other games.

Until now, Valve hasn't released a "full blown sequel" that is only an incremental improvement, and I'm disappointed.

HL2 episode 1, 2?

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Those weren't full blown sequels. It clearly says in the title that they are expansions to Half-life 2. If they were called Half-life 3 and 4, marketed as full blown sequels, and priced at $50 (or $60 for 360), I'd be just as upset. If Left 4 Dead 2 is $30, I'll stop bitching, but I doubt it since they're marking it as a full blown sequel.

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Well, I'd like to chime in here for a minute. I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but Valve did say they were probably going to release a number of resources for Left 4 Dead. This includes an enhanced version of Hammer for the community to make their own Left 4 Dead campaigns. This is a huge deal and can potentially keep the life of the original going, even while 2 is released. Whenever they release the full set of tools for campaign development, I look forward to seeing what the community can come up with.

While I'm not too keen on a new Left 4 Dead so soon, I'm not bothered by it either. My main concern is how much more taxing the new game might be on my computer. I'm technically *below* the listed minimum requirements for the original game, but I run it reasonably well. I'm more worried I won't be able to play the new game when it's released and I get left out in the cold.

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So, so stoked.

Wonder how many of these whiners were butthurt when Spear of Destiny (and 2, and 3) and Doom 2 came out. If they weren't still in the cradle.

-Too soon! (Oh wait, we just got done complaining that it took too long.)

-No L4D DLC! (Oh wait, they said they'd probably release a toolkit and player mappacks.)

-No gameplay upgrade! (Oh wait, they said there were significant AI director improvements and a new gameplay mode.)

-Not enough gameplay upgrade for full price! (Oh wait, it's coming out with more campaigns/gamemodes than the original.)

-Still not enough gameplay upgrade for full price! (Oh wait, we paid damn near full price, if not full, for Doom 2, Majora's Mask, Diablo 2:LOD, BC, WotLK, UT2k3, UT2k4, multiple Guitar Hero/Rock Band sequels, 15 years of Madden games, and once-a-year every other sports game ever made.)

-But some of those are just expansions! (Oh wait, that's exactly why we're arguing we should pay less for them, and we barely did.)

-MMO expansions don't count because they cost less than the original! (Oh wait, not a single one of them literally more-than-doubled the content like L4D2 will.)

-A new version so soon will hunt L4D 1's lifespan! (Oh wait, people still play TFC, CS, and many others, and I have literally no proof to my claim.)

-$60 is too much! (Oh wait, L4D cost $50 on Steam at launch.)

-$50-60 is too much for a one-year game! (Oh wait, MMOs cost $10-15/month, on top of the software purchase.)

-But but but TF2! (Oh wait, the heavy told me to cry some more.)

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Some quick food for thought:

Hypothetical situation:

So, three months back, I felt like buying L4D, because all my mates were playing it. It was a steep asking price, but, I thought, ah heck, it's worth the investment - multiplayer games have good lifespan right? To further cement my faith in my decision, I would think back on support of TF2 and CS:S. (However, this would not be the main reason for my decision).

So I would go out and buy the game.

Anyhow, being the busy university student that I am, I had little time play it with my friends. A few nights here and there a month ago. But fear not, I'd have more time at the end of the year.

Now, only THREE months down the track, and what's this? A SEQUEL ALREADY? And to think I just bought the full priced game?

Now my friends (and of course, a large portion of the community) have moved onto L4D2. Now, I'm stuck, with a product that will become increasingly obsolete from November 17th, which is less than a mere year of when I bought the first one for full price.

Hell no. I'm not being sucked into buying L4D again, so soon.

---

In reality? I never bought L4D. But I may as well have. But I sure as hell DAMN GLAD I did not buy it.

Reasoning? I didn't feel like the game was worth it. I had played a number of times at LAN, and even gave it a shot for the free weekend, but it didn't feel like it was worth the full $50 for the price of admission.

Now I just feel sorry for all those people who did drop $50 on this game.

---

Edit: Another perspective on things: I am a University student studying full-time, but I am not cash-strapped. I recently dropped $40 on the special-edition pre-order of Natural Selection 2, whereas I could have simply waited for the game to come out, or opted for the standard edition, which is HALF THE COST. Nonetheless, I believed that it was worth supporting the independent developers of NS2, and the perks were a welcome bonus.

Being forced to purchase L4D2? Yeah, that's not a welcome bonus.

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Is it really necessary to try and counter every point with silly logic?

L4D2 WILL decrease the longevity of L4D. So what if a SDK is created? A SDK will be released for L4D2 as well, and everything worth a crap will be ported right over. A lot of people still play the old CS and TF because their computers can't handle the newer games, AND CS1 and TF1 are different enough to still be worth playing.

Bringing up Doom 2 is faulty logic, games aren't the same as they were 15 years ago. Times have changed. Take Crysis Warhead for example. That game contained a brand new campaign, new weapons, new vehicles, new enemies, new levels, improved AI, a completely new and separate multiplayer, engine tweaks. All of this for $30.

And MMO's? Oh wait, those have monthly fees because of server costs. Oh you see what I did there?

And sports games like Madden? Are you serious? People are ALWAYS complaining about those games. If anything, you're just solidifying our side of the argument.

Regardless, I'm glad you're excited, but I'm not about to eat up everything that Valve serves to me. Why should I buy L4D2 if L4D3, another incremental upgrade, is announced for November next year? These are multiplayer games, not single player games that are worth playing for story and cool set pieces.

Edit: RedFusion basically sums up my feelings. I paid full price for a game that will be obsolete only one year later. Great! Compare this to Counterstrike and Team Fortress 1, which I played for about four years before they became obsolete.

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Bringing up Doom 2 is -not- faulty logic, because people weren't butthurt about it back then like they are now. They were excited. 15 years ago, things were different indeed, because people like you weren't spoiled yet.

MMOs were brought up on a cost-to-pay basis. People complained about $60 for a year (or less). Who cares WHY you're paying monthly, you're still shelling out $120+ bucks for a year of (insert MMO here) versus much, much less for L4D (don't forget about buying the software!). Plus, L4D isn't going to stop working Nov. 17, but your MMO stops working when your subscription runs out. Quit pretending people are gonna drop off the face of the earth when L4D2 comes out; the whole matchmaking system is in place to help mitigate the effect of smaller player bases.

Sports games? Not as much complaining about those as I see here about this, and they've been running that scam for almost two decades. Plus, they're some of the highest grossing franchises of all time. Google it. (Although that might be because they've been around so long, so.)

Also, add Vice City/San Andreas to that list. And Megamans.

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Did you even read the rest of the post?

Wait, why bother.

No kidding :lol:

Much easier to throw insults than make decent arguements am I right? :wink:

In the end, once it's released, most if not all of us, will be more accepting towards the idea of buying the pc version of L4D2, as it should foever be agreed that the console ports will always be shit in both support and gamer population in comparison. These days xbox/ps2/3 variant controllers for the PC are more abundant, so it should quell keyboard/gamepad preference wars.

This time, while it's still a luxury, it isn't unreasonable to expect at least once in a while some extra contant, with a fee or free of charge.

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i'm missing something here. isn't l4d constantly on sale on steam for half price - like, once every other month? and people actually purchased valve games for full price? what the hell is wrong with these people? they put bioshock on sale for 5$ a few months back. FIVE DOLLARS. for BIOSHOCK, probably the most innovative (on the story and art side) game this generation...and it was only a year after launch, around the time that ps3 got it. and you paid 50$ for a game - after launch, mind you - by this same company? no wonder you're pissed. you're incredibly stupid.

edit: oh, i get it. you people were stupid enough to buy the console version of any game by any company over the pc version. pc versions - particularly for multiplayer-only stuff like tf2 and l4d - rock console versions up the anus in terms of content and not having to pay for stuff. not to mention the mod community.

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i'm missing something here. isn't l4d constantly on sale on steam for half price - like, once every other month? and people actually purchased valve games for full price? what the hell is wrong with these people? they put bioshock on sale for 5$ a few months back. FIVE DOLLARS. for BIOSHOCK, probably the most innovative (on the story and art side) game this generation...and it was only a year after launch, around the time that ps3 got it. and you paid 50$ for a game - after launch, mind you - by this same company? no wonder you're pissed. you're incredibly stupid.

edit: oh, i get it. you people were stupid enough to buy the console version of any game by any company over the pc version. pc versions - particularly for multiplayer-only stuff like tf2 and l4d - rock console versions up the anus in terms of content and not having to pay for stuff. not to mention the mod community.

I actually bought the PC version as I had no xbox and always preferred FPSs on the PC. There are others who bought the console versions but don't call them stupid for not having the wisdom of the future.

Try comparing the ire of the early buyers here to those that suddenly found out their HD-DVD players are instantly obsolete the day it was announced that the format was dead, and new buyers that just bought a player before the announcement and who don't follow such wars (general populace) thinking "Oh it wouldn't matter too much"

OH YES IT DID.

People are not pissed about how the console versions were shit to begin with as it's becoming to be an accepted fact, people are pissed, in particularly the early/first buyers, about not seeing more support of the original title and felt they were charged to play an overblown demo in comparison to the next iteration.

Now before unleashing the dogs me, L4D was and still is fun, it's wanting to add more value to the game such as extra content and "real mods", not just sound packs... New maps, possibly new fun modes, tweaked stronger AI Director ect that the first time buyers want to see.

As for being gracious about it, Valve don't care at all about our being gracious and more about being successful; in this regard, continuing the L4D series. L4D2 may this time around see new content added on along side being vanilla, where as the original was like getting french vanilla (which is very tasty and mostly satisfying) but very few chocolate chips thrown in.

@ Prophet:

I had expected you of all people to understand how early buyers can end up feeling robbed or over charged when their recently newly built system can't handle or handles poorly new and up coming software in a few months.

:sad:

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From what I'm understanding and reading, Left 4 Dead 2 looks like it'll be the definitive experience that they probably wanted to create originally. Vastly enhanced AI director that they say couldn't have been patched into the original, more of an emphasis on melee combat with new weapons like the fire ax and the chainsaw(even more interesting that these weapons can be knocked out of your hand by attacking zombies), zombies with more dynamic motions based on what kind they are and how much damage they've taken(I see so many Monty Python jokes in the near future), etc.

A friend of mine tells me that the engine is a modified TF2 engine, which is why the characters have that sort of look, and I don't know if I like that just yet since I'm a fan of the gritty visual style and the techniques used in the original. Time will tell I guess.

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I see so many Monty Python jokes in the near future

No one expects the Urban Survivalists!

Our chief weapons are chainsaws...

chainsaws and guns...

guns and chainsaws...

Our two weapons are guns and chainsaws...

and ruthless efficiency....

Our *three* weapons are guns, chainsaws, and ruthless efficiency...

and an almost fanatical devotion to the axe...

Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons....

Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as guns, chainsaws...

I'll come in again...

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a recent system that can't handle a new game wasn't a good system. that simple. i've had my current system - which is a baseline that i build others off of - for over a year and it's still kicking ass and taking names in all the newest games. so that argument doesn't apply as much. plus no one i sell to is stupid enough to actually buy the 700$ graphics card when it'll be 350$ next month anyways.

i guess that i should point to halo 2 in this regard. everyone was pissed when h3 was announced solely for the 360 and not for the original xbox as well. people wanted more maps for h2, wanted more content, blah blah blah. except that h2 still has a great community of players online who play often. just like l4d will.

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a recent system that can't handle a new game wasn't a good system. that simple. i've had my current system - which is a baseline that i build others off of - for over a year and it's still kicking ass and taking names in all the newest games. so that argument doesn't apply as much. plus no one i sell to is stupid enough to actually buy the 700$ graphics card when it'll be 350$ next month anyways.

i guess that i should point to halo 2 in this regard. everyone was pissed when h3 was announced solely for the 360 and not for the original xbox as well. people wanted more maps for h2, wanted more content, blah blah blah. except that h2 still has a great community of players online who play often. just like l4d will.

I'll admit I was shakey on the system build scenario, but man you'd have to be a major dick to do something like that for a quick buck on an average joe though :lol:

I do hope to see that same community for L4D to stay strong despite the ugly thought of all the players moving to the next one en mass.

And for the damned SDK to come out for the both of them.

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No kidding :lol:

Much easier to throw insults than make decent arguements am I right? :wink:

Take it as an insult if you want to. If you use the wording "forced to buy" talking about a video game, you deserve to be poked at some. No one forces anyone to buy any video game. Its an optional choice. If you don't like the way L4D2 is gonna be, don't buy it, its that simple. Not buying L4D2 will not affect playing L4D1, as in they are not gonna say "oh hey guys, all L4D1 servers are going down on release day of L4D2, so tough cookies."

And people are still avoiding the announcement of new maps for l4d1 plus updated match making.

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Take it as an insult if you want to. If you use the wording "forced to buy" talking about a video game, you deserve to be poked at some. No one forces anyone to buy any video game. Its an optional choice. If you don't like the way L4D2 is gonna be, don't buy it, its that simple. Not buying L4D2 will not affect playing L4D1, as in they are not gonna say "oh hey guys, all L4D1 servers are going down on release day of L4D2, so tough cookies."

And people are still avoiding the announcement of new maps for l4d1 plus updated match making.

I was speaking in general and I never said I was never going to buy it, heck I even said it earlier in the thread that I'd get it anyways :lol:

As for the new maps I thought it was expected :wink:; however I'm glad that match making will be better this time around.

But hey give more details on the maps and stuff to get this thread at least on a better track now. Plus I'm at work so...

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thanks for posting that wes, i just checked a couple pages back and didn't see the link and wsa going to at least include this little gem:

The SDK will be coming out of beta in the next week or so, and Faliszek points to that to prove that Left 4 Dead will still be updated. Also, all the maps created with the SDK will work on the sequel. As for playing old maps with old characters but new creatures and melee? "We have some additional work to do there, we're talking about how to do that. That's what we want to do."

so! that's actually really exciting news. i'm still skeptical, but it seems that every day more news comes out from valve that really makes the game much more appealing.

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