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DarkOmenDKA

What happened to Unmod?

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Ironically, the mass bans and the culmination of UnMods deletion resulted in probably the worst backlash in site history, and alienated 90% of the community that was here (regardless of their contributions or lack thereof, they were still community members). I agree with Dhsu that a "phase-in" grace period would've been a MUCH better way to do it, and wouldn't have left nearly as bad of a taste in peoples' mouths. Never mind what the staff themselves had to say about the whole debacle, and of course the glorifying the entire event (as seen above from Radiowar). It's all old hat by now, though. The forums are boring, and that's okay.

90% is a pretty exaggerated statistic, don't you think? :roll:

And all that stuff about renaming UnMod and/or phasing in was discussed heavily, long before any of the really bad shit started to go down from either "side." The deletion of UnMod had been in the works for quite a while (on the order of months to a year), and the moderators (back when guys like Gray and I were mods) spent a lot of time figuring out the best way to do it. And when I say "best," I don't mean "best" for the people who made being a mod hell, I mean "best" for the interests of the site and the community at large.

Renaming the forum wouldn't have changed anything. Outright deleting the forum made a lot of people get pissed off and leave; people that had made it clear that they didn't give two shits about anything related to this website except for UnMod itself. I'll probably catch a lot of shit for saying this, but good riddance. I think I've earned the right to say that, after the bullshit I had to put up with the night the forum got deleted.

Yeah, I know other people left that did care a little. I'm sorry to see them go. But despite everything OCR's gone through, the community always survives and grows. People still make music, talk about music, play games, have compos, do meetups, go to concerts, etc. etc. etc. I prefer that kind of community far more than what UnMod "offered" by a long shot.

But what do I know? I'm just a shitty judge.

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Unmod used to provide random topic discussions, flame wars, fart jokes, and lots of animated boobies. It was merely discovered that the internet already provides all these things in mass quantity and OCR didn't need a low-brow gathering of that kind to maintain a following. A little less mainstream appeal for a smidgeon more class. A good trade off? Maybe. But really, expecting people to change in a "phase out" manner wouldn't have worked. People will do what they're used to, so changing something in name only and updating the policy (Which really, who bothers to read? I mean be respectful and appropriate, that's really what they all boil down to) would have just given unmod a different label. Mass banning both showed the teeth of the community and left a gap where immaturity had transitioned into depravity. Does there need to be a forum for off-topic sometimes juvenile banter? Yes. Does there need to forum for penis jokes and porn? No. And to ensure that you needed to get rid of the people who had openly taken part in those acts. Of course this is just my opinion.

Edit - Well it looks like DarkeSword posted basically the same thing but worded better right before me. Go back a page and read his post.

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I get the feeling that the people who say unmod was only for tubgirl and goatse and porn never really went there. I was just a lurker, but for me it was the only place with any interesting or remotely funny discussion, as opposed to gendisc which is just for talking about video games.

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1. Gendisc is for any discussion of music, video games, movies, or anime, among other things, which covers a broad range of topics.

2. Offtopic STILL lets you talk about "interesting and funny" topics at your leisure, provided you don't break the forum rules - which are quite lenient, and simply bar outright spamming/trolling, harassment, and porn threads. If you needed to spam the forum or post goatse to have a laugh, then go to 4chan.

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The deletion of UnMod had been in the works for quite a while (on the order of months to a year), and the moderators (back when guys like Gray and I were mods) spent a lot of time figuring out the best way to do it. And when I say "best," I don't mean "best" for the people who made being a mod hell, I mean "best" for the interests of the site and the community at large.

...

I think I've earned the right to say that, after the bullshit I had to put up with the night the forum got deleted.

Going by your own words, I believe it may be safe to say how it was done wasn't the "best" way then, yes? The folks on the site got no warning of when it would happen, it just simply happened. As I stated in my article, everyone knew that UnMod would be going, but no date or general time frame was given. It was simply there one second, and gone the next. And well, we all saw the end result.

As I said to djp back in the first "What happened to UnMod?" thread, I feel he greatly underestimated how people would react when being given a deletion date, and that he got bad advice from those around him at MAGfest (only "one side of the story" as it were). But that seemed destined to happen since the mods and judges who actually liked or tolerated UnMod weren't at MAGfest, and only those who hated it and rarely/never took part it, were. It's hard to get good, well rounded feedback from peers when every one of them that's present at that moment is biased against what's being discussed. And this I fear, played a part in what lead up to the backlash when it happened. Undoubtedly, some of the UnMod folks let their tempers get the better of them, and they certainly could have handled UnMod's deletion better. But I believe that can be said of both sides... especially the latter part.

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Going by your own words, I believe it may be safe to say how it was done wasn't the "best" way then, yes? The folks on the site got no warning of when it would happen, it just simply happened. As I stated in my article, everyone knew that UnMod would be going, but no date or general time frame was given. It was simply there one second, and gone the next. And well, we all saw the end result.

Oh I'm not arguing that the way the it actually played out was the way to do it; remember who got stuck dealing with the backlash on their own? People would have been given a timeframe, some warning, but it didn't play out that way, because yes, there were staff members at Magfest who really despised Unmod and wanted it gone ASAP.

But here's the thing: even with advance warning, backlash still would have happened. There's no question in my mind about that. All the offensive, abusive, and outright malicious things that were posted that night would still have been posted, even with advance warning; it just would have been spread out over time, and I think we'd still be dealing with it today.

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This discussion has gone on too long and everything has been said multiple times.

Locked.

Nice try :-P . I left it up for people to discuss if they liked, since I'm hoping some civil discussion can occur now that its been a while.

That said, I used to lurk a lot in Unmod, and post there in bursts in incredibly boring moments of my life. One thing that never ceased to amaze me was that the prevailing thought that any moderation was a sin though, and that it would justify some of the extremist reactionary behavior that has been seen in the past.

One thing I want to reemphasize though - first day of MAGFest I was there or so, I did mention that we should've held off on the deletion until after MAGFest. However, that does not excuse the shenanigans that happened afterwards. If anything, all they do is validate the reasons it occurred, such as the IP blocking of staff to post an image of a story, or a mass flooding of negative & negatively worded comments to the extent where it is harassment. Even before the deletion, with the switch to vBulletin, a lot of people were going far past common courtesy in voicing their complaints. All those incidents kept recurring and kept reinforcing the need to address it.

Just because it's the internet doesn't justify acting like a child, and that point needed to be honed in. For the most part, the deletion did what it was intended to - drive away those who caused trouble and those who supported/contained that mindset. My only lament was over the timing, which screwed over Darkesword. People were going to be angry - we understood this. We underestimated how mature some of these people were though, and I wish we had more of the staff on hand.

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This is a generalization and definitely doesn't apply to all unmodders, but I have a feeling that some of them knew nothing they said would change anything, didn't want to hang around ocr anymore, and just decided to see how much damage they could do before getting banned.

Usually I have a very anti-establishment mindset when it comes to ocr but truthfully, unmod sucked. And yes, I spent some time there. like three minutes.

Remember when the remix reviews forum was the most active one? yeah, those were the days...

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Just because it's the internet doesn't justify acting like a child, and that point needed to be honed in.
Thanks Dad.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Reminds me of that line from Jurassic Park.

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Oh I'm not arguing that the way the it actually played out was the way to do it; remember who got stuck dealing with the backlash on their own? People would have been given a timeframe, some warning, but it didn't play out that way, because yes, there were staff members at Magfest who really despised Unmod and wanted it gone ASAP.

But here's the thing: even with advance warning, backlash still would have happened. There's no question in my mind about that. All the offensive, abusive, and outright malicious things that were posted that night would still have been posted, even with advance warning; it just would have been spread out over time, and I think we'd still be dealing with it today.

I guess that's where you and I differ, DS. I don't think there would have been nearly the amount of flames and spamming if there'd been a date given ahead of time. A big chunk of why what happened took place, was because of how abrupt it was. No one got a chance to save anything from the threads that were in place, and it simply happened without any kind of feedback from the very people who were going to be affected by the deletion. It came across as a big slap in the face, especially after some of the commentary in the preceding weeks by various judges and mods. It was as if the site staff gave a big "fuck you" to everyone who enjoyed UnMod, and that is why the backlash took place in my view. It looked like a complete lack of respect was being shown, and that pissed a good number of people off. While we now know a bit more on both sides of the issue thanks to the first "Where did UnMod go?" thread, at the time to deletion took place, that's how it came across.

Would there have been posts in Gen Dis about it? Sure. Would there have been nasty comments being left? More than likely. But I don't feel it would have been even half as bad if the deletion had been given a set date or time frame. Perhaps if Off Topic had been ready to go the moment UnMod was deleted, and made live right after the action was taken, there would have been even less spill over into Gen Dis on top of that. Who knows. In the end, the tempers of various UnModders are certainly to blame for some of what happened. However, I also feel that the choices and actions made by some of the staff both before (due in part to the lack of sought after insight from those on the other side of the issue) and after the deletion, is also partially to blame.

While we'll never know how things would have gone if the other route was taken, I honestly feel it would have proven to be far less stressful and chaotic.

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I still want to know why. Maybe it has been answered and I overlooked it, but that question still lingers for me. How can someone say a person was getting our of hand on a forum whose very name implies that things like that may happen? I don't recall ever seeing or reading anything that was VERY offensive. I think Unmod was such a HUGE part of the OCR community that when it did happen, like Coop said, people felt they got slapped in the face.

I have been coming to OCR since it started up and I enjoy the site a lot, I just wish that those actions were not taken. It feels like a very large and active community of OCR was just removed for no reason. I'm am sure there is one, but that is what it seems like.

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I still want to know why. Maybe it has been answered and I overlooked it, but that question still lingers for me. How can someone say a person was getting our of hand on a forum whose very name implies that things like that may happen?

It was decided that the OCR community no longer needed a place where flaming, trolling, spamming, and general disrespectful bullshit was not only allowed but encouraged. The site has matured since the forums were first started. Yes, initially Dave was OK with a "free for all" type of place, but the forum has grown exponentially since then and the people in this community have changed quite a bit. If Unmod kept to itself and never bothered anyone it might still be around, but the fact is that it DID "spill out" into other areas of the forum regularly, and in the eyes of the moderation it was more trouble than it was worth.

Off Topic still allows for nonsense threads, "look what I did today" blog-style threads, generally 'mature' discussion, and so forth. But you can no longer post 10 fad threads in a row, make porn threads, harass other users, make threads with the sole purpose of trolling others, disrespect the site staff, etc. Wow, what a loss.

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People like to say that little spillover happened, but the truth is, it was more than substantial enough, and with some cases, the degree of it was more than unacceptable. The fact that some people even stayed around for months (even during May) after making alt accounts just to make trollish posts or to waste moderators' time exemplifies how far some people had and have been willing to go. I don't think that any change in what we did short of keeping the forum would've changed people like these and their reactions.

Also, even though it was called Unmod, common sense indicates that there are still rules to follow, and it was pretty hard to ignore the few stickies that were there all the time.

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Off Topic still allows for nonsense threads, "look what I did today" blog-style threads, generally 'mature' discussion, and so forth. But you can no longer post 10 fad threads in a row, make porn threads, harass other users, make threads with the sole purpose of trolling others, disrespect the site staff, etc. Wow, what a loss.
In short, no lulz.

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disrespect the site staff...

Lets not forget that some site staff members weren't always very respectful either. It was a two way street, which is part of what fueled the "Us vs Them" mentality I talked about elsewhere.

Sure, various UnMod members did it more than various site staff, but neither side was innocent regarding trash talking and making generalized insults.

People like to say that little spillover happened, but the truth is, it was more than substantial enough, and with some cases, the degree of it was more than unacceptable. The fact that some people even stayed around for months (even during May) after making alt accounts just to make trollish posts or to waste moderators' time exemplifies how far some people had and have been willing to go. I don't think that any change in what we did short of keeping the forum would've changed people like these and their reactions.

Those handful of people? Probably not. But what about the rest of the folks that were here for the event? How do you think they would have responded to a different approach? That seems to be what's getting lost in here. The generalized view of how things were then, is being based upon the actions of a percentage of people... not the collective whole. Yes, a handful of trouble makers would've spammed anyway. But they could have been dealt with easily enough, and the harsh feelings created by the abrupt deletion wouldn't have been nearly as potent had things been done differently I think.

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Lets not forget that some site staff members weren't always very respectful either. It was a two way street, which is part of what fueled the "Us vs Them" mentality I talked about elsewhere.

As far as I'm concerned, I had 0 feelings towards anyone in Unmod until they started causing trouble that I had to moderate. That's when I started disliking certain members and losing respect for the board as a whole - with each new warning or banning that had to occur by the mod staff, we'd check and see "oh, he's an unmodder". Many of the site staff, myself included, were specifically harassed for pretty much no reason outside of simply enforcing rules.

In other words, my opinion only formed as a DIRECT result of how unmod behaved (or at least the most vocal and problematic members). I'm sure the same applies for various other members of the staff as well. Of course we're going to reciprocate disrespect, trolling, harassment with stricter enforcement. Not to mention that we really don't have a responsibility to be respectful to troublemakers to begin with.

Those handful of people? Probably not. But what about the rest of the folks that were here for the event? How do you think they would have responded to a different approach? That seems to be what's getting lost in here. The generalized view of how things were then, is being based upon the actions of a percentage of people... not the collective whole. Yes, a handful of trouble makers would've spammed anyway. But they could have been dealt with easily enough, and the harsh feelings created by the abrupt deletion wouldn't have been nearly as potent had things been done differently I think.

The amount of people who weren't troublemakers and who genuinely cared about this event so much to be put off from OCR entirely is minuscule, compared to the total community membership and the total listenership of OCR. I also agree with Bahamut that I doubt things would have been different had we simply given more advance notice.

While you're still bitter, along with a handful of others, the site is thriving. OCR is as popular as ever. This has been THE most exciting year yet in terms of site growth. We're more respected than ever in the video game industry with several new important partnerships and affiliations. Expansion has been constant. The backend has been improved, and in general, even mundane operations are more professional than ever (see: all the various updates to site documentation and the legal agreement for remixers).

You're making it sound like we've somehow been injured seriously because of the method of unmod's deletion, when that really is just.. not the case.

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In other words, my opinion only formed as a DIRECT result of how unmod behaved (or at least the most vocal and problematic members).

In other words, 'but they started it!'.

While you're still bitter, along with a handful of others, the site is thriving. OCR is as popular as ever. This has been THE most exciting year yet in terms of site growth. We're more respected than ever in the video game industry with several new important partnerships and affiliations. Expansion has been constant..

The site is thriving. The forum isn't. 'hey look the judges got to go to [convention]' doesn't mean everyone on the boards is happy about everything.

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While you're still bitter, along with a handful of others, the site is thriving. OCR is as popular as ever. This has been THE most exciting year yet in terms of site growth. We're more respected than ever in the video game industry with several new important partnerships and affiliations. Expansion has been constant. The backend has been improved, and in general, even mundane operations are more professional than ever (see: all the various updates to site documentation and the legal agreement for remixers).

You're making it sound like we've somehow been injured seriously because of the method of unmod's deletion, when that really is just.. not the case.

Eh, but there is still some bitterness amongst people who're still here, people who still stand by the community and who liked both aspects. Some of those, I can sympathize with somewhat, and some things could've been done better (and mistakes by people like me haven't helped any). Decision-wise though, I think we did what was right for the site.

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Sure there's bitterness, just look at Blitz and Coop for example. :) I was just pointing out that it's not as if OCR has been irrevocably damaged beyond repair as a result of a decision that, was, at heart, in the site's best interest. Execution was shaky but we've been over that a million times.

The site is thriving. The forum isn't. 'hey look the judges got to go to [convention]' doesn't mean everyone on the boards is happy about everything.

And your definition of thriving is... what exactly? C-Disc is obviously fine as always, Remixing/wips, reviews, site projects, I guess the whole set of boards isn't "thriving" unless people are making lots of fad threads in Off Topic?

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