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DarkeSword

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption

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I can enjoy, understand, and appreciate FPSs as much as you can. I never once generalized the genre. If you insist its true then please show me where I once generalized the genre please. I would love to see it. If your going by the simple "run and gun" generaltion, I never said FPSs where simply "run and gun". Stop acting like your the only that can fully understand and apperciate the FPS genre.

On the record, FPS games aren't even close to my favorite genres. Also, if I put on air that made it seem like nobody appreciates FPS games, that wasn't my intention. I was talking more about the things that are basically taken granted in gaming genre conventions. Even if people enjoy games like Halo greatly, a lot of Halo fans even see the first player as an appetizer for the multiplayer. Even Unreal fans may have forgotten that the sense of adventure in the first Unreal was what really kickstarted the entire FPS genre into having more of a sense of large scale adventure, epic sci-fi settings and more. We just take what we can get and have fun but not necessarily appreciate them from a game theory perspective of what they brought to the table as a genre. Certainly individual appreciation has a bit to do with it as well, but I'm not specifically naming each individual (at least not in this thread) of not being appreciative about it. Perhaps a bit misinformed at times with some non-FPS gamers maybe, but that is completely understandable.

Stop treating me like I'm an idoit. I know they are First Person. I was simply giving an example of First person games that don't have the First Person part tagged on to them. For the most part, they are known simply as RPGs.

I never insinuated anyone was the duller for not acknowledging it. I just think a lot of this is politicized since Retro themselves have been tagging it as 'not your average shooter', which is completely right, but that basically created a lot of rift in this issue which should not even be happening at all. It almost is like how Metal Gear Solid developers and Kojima always tried to shy away from their occasional 3rd person/1st person perspective in its games even when they blatantly copy something like the Splinter Cell camera system or even bother putting a distance from it and other action/shooter games.

I mean, I just think parting entire games and series from other games is just silly in ideal if they generally follow the same kind of a system as the other games of their ilk. I mean, surely a Metal Gear is not the same as some film licensed shooter with little new gameplay in there and Final Fantasy games are definitely in a much higher calibur than something like the Suikoden series for the most part. But they are all a part of the same clay.

I can agree in spirit that such games can stand out from their genres and the typical conventions that goes with their label. But technically, I can't help but disagree.

I think that's it right there. That's why I say Metroid isn't a shooter but rather an adventure first and foremost with shooter components. If you take Metroid as a shooter, you get a very simple shooter. A very basic shooter. A very primitive shooter. A game that has none of robust characteristics of the shooters you are trying to defend. In its shooting elements, Metroid is not very heavy on strategy, or stealth, or any advanced shooter mechanics. This is why Metroid is not a shooter. Its shooter elements are added for variety. To mix up the pacing. To give a sudden shot of adrenaline now and then.

The one thing I can disagree with that is that Metroid isn't a total lame duck in its shooting department. It's just a bit rustic and oldschool in how it does it with the typical 'aim for the weakspot!' aspect of the first Metroid games. Nothing wrong with that. In a sense, I equate Metroid games to the NES shooters in a way. It's ironic because I can make a similar argument for the oldschool Metroid games because the most basic premise of Metroid games is that of a 2D shooter, but it so heavily emphasizes the sense of adventure and exploration, it becomes an adventure at the foremost. That is the gist of my explanation in saying that Metroid Prime games are FPS games at their very core, but the adventure elements takes over it.

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Injin, quit postwhoring. You're being a troll. Start up your own emo topic to argue the definitions of game genres and stop stinking up this topic. :P

Do you even know what the words 'postwhoring', 'trolling', and even 'emo' mean?

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Injin, quit postwhoring. You're being a troll. Start up your own emo topic to argue the definitions of game genres and stop stinking up this topic. :P

I actually think we made a lot of headway with the discussion. And really, this one issue has been a stickingpoint for Metroid Prime games since the beginning. I doubt the argument will go away forever either, elsewhere.

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Ah ha! I finally figured out what I didn't like about the PED Suit! It's been at the back of my mind since I finished the game, but I couldn't figure out what exactly I didn't like...

It's such a gimmick.

Like, I understand why Retro did what it did. But I don't see why every modern game has to somehow mirror every story choice made with the gameplay. It's like they feel they have to legitimize the story somehow, and that if they tie the story directly in with the gameplay, then it will somehow bring more credibility.

What's worse is that a large number of Nintendo 1st party titles have been doing that. SMS did it with F.L.U.D.D.; who cares that Mario was on a island? Noone, that's who. But, they added F.L.U.D.D. as if it would somehow make Mario's being on a island make better sense.

The PED suit was cool and all, but in retrospect, all of the PED puzzles felt tacked on and clunky. No thought was required past 'what hyper weapon do I use?'. Hypermode had no negative repercussions besides Terminal Corruption, which rarely, if ever, happens to anyone who knows how to use the damn suit. And that bioscan in the ship? Totally unnecessary, especially considering it has no relevance to your hypermode usage.

Wow, that's my rant for the day... lol

--Jack Kieser

EDIT: I agree with Injin on this one. As a design student, I feel I've learned a lot about the hybridization of genres. Especially about how to discern the main and subordinate genres of any given game. Which I thank all the participants for, btw.

And about the definition from that textbook... the definitions in there, which were compiled by Christopher Erhardt, if anyone wants to look up the credentials or anything (not being facetious, I swear), are for modern games (not to mention for gamers, who already know a lot about genres; I will readily admit that they are quick and dirty definitions, but they are still vaild ones). We aren't studying retro design (that's a later class). Modern FPS' usually do have a focus on multiplayer; I say usually because thanks to hybridization, games rarely fall into one category (Bioshock, for instance, is a perfect example, because while a FPS it is, it is also very RPG-element heavy).

And I don't think we are necessarily arguing whether MP3 has FPS elements, per se, but whether those elements are the primary focus of the game's design.

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I just don't like how you acquire the suit. A boss fight beforehand would have been nice.

I think the suit was ugly and completely unneeded. They could have simply had it as an addition to the varia suit.

Though, I did like what they did with the hazard suit. Having your entire armor take on a forcefield effect. Though, it leaves me wondering.. what the hell happened to the gravity suit, and what couldn't it do, in these environments? :P

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And I don't think we are necessarily arguing whether MP3 has FPS elements, per se, but whether those elements are the primary focus of the game's design.

That's what it boils down to. I absolutely feel I-n-j-i-n is approaching Metroid Backwards by saying it's a shooter that had the adventure elements take over. That's sounds rather absurd to me. That's like saying The Legend of Zelda was a hack 'n Slash but the adventure element diverted focus away from the combat.

Starting with the primitive original, search and discovery was pretty obviously the point of the game. The fact that you had a (rather pathetic) blaster to make your way past hostile aliens was just part of the full package. The upgrades you got in the game made you more powerful sure, but they still were at their most useful as tools. The Metroid games are Adventure games with frag style shooter elements incorporated into them.

Anyway, on MP3: Corruption, I have to disagree with comments on the PED suit being a gimmick and complaints about incorporating the story into the game play. C'mon, what do you want? It was well done, fun, and interesting.

The Fusion Suit in Metroid Fusion on the other hand...now that just plain sucked. If you want to talk ugly design, look no further than that. Still a great game. ...wish I could have reformatted "Adam's" hard drive though to shut him up.

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Anyway, on MP3: Corruption, I have to disagree with comments on the PED suit being a gimmick and complaints about incorporating the story into the game play. C'mon, what do you want? It was well done, fun, and interesting.

Well, I would have either wanted deeper commitment to the PED suit or no PED suit at all. Like I said, the puzzles seemed too tacked on and simplistic. You figured out which Hyper mode weapon to use, then you used it. Plus, there was no correlation to the amount of times you used Hyper mode and the level of corruption in Samus body. I'm not saying Samus' corruption was a bad mechanic, but there were certainly better ways to have handled it.

For as much commitment Retro had to the Phazon storyline, you would think Samus' own corruption would play bigger into the story...

--Jack Kieser

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Well, I would have either wanted deeper commitment to the PED suit or no PED suit at all. Like I said, the puzzles seemed too tacked on and simplistic. You figured out which Hyper mode weapon to use, then you used it. Plus, there was no correlation to the amount of times you used Hyper mode and the level of corruption in Samus body. I'm not saying Samus' corruption was a bad mechanic, but there were certainly better ways to have handled it.

For as much commitment Retro had to the Phazon storyline, you would think Samus' own corruption would play bigger into the story...

--Jack Kieser

Given that they had a bio-hazard scanner in the ship, I agree that the level of corruption should have been related to the amount of times you entered Hypermode. But it would've been tricky to make that work wouldn't it? I mean, what if you reached 99% near the very last leviathan, and then needed to use Hyper mode to get past it. That save file would just... be impossible to complete? That would kind of blow.

The PED suit on its own accord though, I had no problems accepting.

On a semi related note (END GAME SPOILER): Does the number of energy tanks you've accumulated throughout the game bear any influence on the phazon meter? Having only played through once so far, I can't compare it, but it didn't appear that it would, which would make a "minimal energy tank play-through" awfully cheapened.

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Response to both points:

They could have simply made a way to have to juggle your Hyper mode usage; a way to reduce your corruption level, but it's a pain in the ass to do it. Besides, Silent Hill 4 had a mechanic to where it would eventually become impossible to win the game; I'm not saying that's a good thing, but developers have been that ballsy before.

I just think that, like I said, for the amount Phazon played into the story, we didn't get a whole lot of focus on Samus' corruption, save for the few times the AU talks to you during the game.

Now, for the spoilers:

(No, the amount of tanks you have doesn't help or hinder you, or so it seemed to me. I beat the game twice: once without 100% completion and once with. Didn't feel any different to me.

And, speaking of the ending, why do you have to overload all the leviathans, but no such tactic is used on Dark Samus? You would think one of the largest sources of Phazon would need the largest surge to be destroyed. It would have made sense, too, considering that Samus loses her corruption during that fight...)

--Jack Kieser

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PED suit is awesome. Or hyper mode anyway. More I play the game the more I realize I can do with it, especially for speed.

Hands down, the new controls, level design, new features like boost ball aiming, the start with early abilities, and hyper mode from the PED suit make Prime 3 the most fun and replayable for amateur speed runners like me over any of the other prime games.

My complaint about the PED was how it looks. It isn't all *that* bad and it does grow on you, but I liked the Varia suit better, and the gravity suit from previous games.

About tanks and the PED suit...spoilerThey do effect how fast your phazon level goes up on Phaaze. Going through there on 1 tank, you have to be very very fast.

Want to know the best "new" Samus suit look ever? End of Fusion, after you re-obtain your original suit parts from the killed SA-X. Hard over 2 hours, before 4, less than 100%...

http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/gba/c/mfu-32.png

I eagerly look forward to when they make the game following the events of Fusion with this suit design as the start.

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Want to know the best "new" Samus suit look ever? End of Fusion, after you re-obtain your original suit parts from the killed SA-X. Hard over 2 hours, before 4, less than 100%...

http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/gba/c/mfu-32.png

I eagerly look forward to when they make the game following the events of Fusion with this suit design as the start.

beating fusion with 100% takes some getting used to. i beat it at 100% at 2 hours and 2 minutes. couldn't get from the save room to the end of the game in time

also, you get to play as the original suit+fusion suit combo in metroid prime 1. though the regular blue and yellow fusion suit is obtainable through beating the game, i'm not sure how to get the orange and yellow version. action replay fixed that for me

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beating fusion with 100% takes some getting used to. i beat it at 100% at 2 hours and 2 minutes. couldn't get from the save room to the end of the game in time

also, you get to play as the original suit+fusion suit combo in metroid prime 1. though the regular blue and yellow fusion suit is obtainable through beating the game, i'm not sure how to get the orange and yellow version. action replay fixed that for me

Her end-game suit actually has a small noticeable difference from her orange and yellow fusion suit. She actually reclaims her original varia suit(technically it is her end-game Super Metroid suit, gravity suit included) parts(thus the reason why she is able to use her ice beam again at the very end). It has a more "armor" look to it than the fusion look itself, but still retains a few of the aesthetic differences, which overall generally just give the suit a sleeker appearance.

Plus, she's got the whole adaptable chozo tech infused power suit + Metroid vaccine X-parasite absorbing properties. Pretty cool if you ask me for the main protagonist of the Metroid series to leave Fusion with her suit fused with that Metroid energy ability.

I forget which stage of suit(varia, gravity, phazon) in Prime 1 with the fusion suit looked the best...

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