Super Smash Bros. Brawl

[Broken]

This saddens me greatly. We've been seeing the same basic moves for characters like Fox and Captain Falcon for two games. Years. I was really hoping for a full redesign for all the characters. But after looking through the updates, I'm getting the feeling this will be much of the same stuff as a base, with the new stuff piled on top. No real game mechanic change.

My greatest wish is that Sakurai somehow does something that makes this game utterly distasteful to tourney players. I absolutely hate the wavedashing, bair, etc. stuff that gets thrown around. Brawl is not being made for you - it's being made for the other 95% of Melee players who enjoyed what the game is actually about.

Flame me if you want, but I just think the tourney players miss the point of the game.

Please don't start this shit again. It's old. Like I've already said, leave your complaints with the tournament community in Smashboards or some other place where you think people will care. If you don't like competition, don't play fighting games.

[Eulogic]

Flame me if you want, but I just think the tourney players miss the point of the game.

So the people who play the game the most miss the point? You guys are retarded if you think wavedashing gives a player that big of an advantage. What gives a person who wavedashes an advantage is the fact that they've played the game a shit ton.

To make the game distasteful to tournament players, you'd have to make the outcome of each game virtually random. Don't get me wrong, I like Mario Party, but I'd prefer to keep that out of my Smash.

EVs in Pokémon were never a glitch or an exploit (not to mention that they take virtually no time to learn and take advantage of), and I'm not convinced wavedashing is in Smash. And it doesn't even really give that huge an advantage to those who do it. It just gives you more options while you are playing, which, in my opinion, makes the game more fun.

[The Mutericator]

hahahaha.

ha.

I'm specifying because of the old talk about how wavedashing was actually noticed by playtesters but left in the game regardless.

[supremespleen]

Please don't start this shit again. It's old. Like I've already said, leave your complaints with the tournament community in Smashboards or some other place where you think people will care. If you don't like competition, don't play fighting games.

YEAH

DON'T TALK ABOUT SUPER SMASH BROTHERS BRAWL IN A THREAD ABOUT IT

IN A GAMING FORUM

CHRIST

[Arek the Absolute]

Plus, Olimar's an inch tall. That doesn't bode well against characters like Bowser.

Kirby is 8 inches tall. What is your point?

By the way, to those of you that are complaining about tournament players beating you and you guys having no chance cause you don't know the moves, either practice said moves or don't play against tournament players.

Very simple.

In other words, play casuals and stop bitching.

[Effector]

If you don't like competition, don't play fighting games.

What? Who said anything about competition? I'm against taking the spirit of competition (good) to the extreme where you don't have fun with the game. Having a little competition between friends can lead to a great time. Exploiting silly glitches (and yes, wavedashing is a glitch - clearly never meant to be a legitimate technique from the beginning) to win isn't what any Nintendo game is about - EVs in Pokemon, snaking in Kart, or any of the already mentioned things in SSB.

Nintendo has said again and again that they make games for people to have fun. I think people forget that when they immerse themselves in that totally competitive attitude.

[Eulogic]

What? Who said anything about competition? I'm against taking the spirit of competition (good) to the extreme where you don't have fun with the game. Having a little competition between friends can lead to a great time. Exploiting silly glitches (and yes, wavedashing is a glitch - clearly never meant to be a legitimate technique from the beginning) to win isn't what any Nintendo game is about - EVs in Pokemon, snaking in Kart, or any of the already mentioned things in SSB.

Wavedashing is easy, fun, and in no way ensures a win. EVs are extremely easy to understand unless you are literally mentally retarded and take very little time to actually implement.

Stop being a bitch. Basically, you want the game to be Mario Party.

[Arek the Absolute]

EVs is NOT a glitch in Pokemon you idiots.

And who said that competitive games are not fun? I have a blast playing against EasyP and Ibanez in Garou and in SF3A and we are playing strongly competitively.

Stop complaining about your inability to grasp things that other players find easy.

Learn the shit and stop complaining.

Shit, lets instead call this game "happy fun time: hugs for all" instead, since you patsies are whining so god damn much.

[Effector]

Stop complaining about your inability to grasp things that other players find easy.

Learn the shit and stop complaining.

What the hell? This is exactly what spleen was talking about - you automagically assume I don't know how to do these "tricks". I understand EVs and I've wavedashed in Melee. But that doesn't mean I want to ruin my gaming experience with these things. Just because you can do something advanced doesn't mean that it will make the game more fun.

I play games for fun - not be better than the next guy. So stop assuming that because I don't, I can't. Insulting my intelligence is juvenile.

Forget, this is stupid to argue about. So, uh, how about Fox's new (ugly) face?

[Red Shadow]

What? Who said anything about competition? I'm against taking the spirit of competition (good) to the extreme where you don't have fun with the game. Having a little competition between friends can lead to a great time. Exploiting silly glitches (and yes, wavedashing is a glitch - clearly never meant to be a legitimate technique from the beginning) to win isn't what any Nintendo game is about - EVs in Pokemon, snaking in Kart, or any of the already mentioned things in SSB.

Nintendo has said again and again that they make games for people to have fun. I think people forget that when they immerse themselves in that totally competitive attitude.

You've errantly skipped over a really simple concept. Tourny players may just play the way they do because they have fun that way. Ever think of that?

I think most of the crazy advanced shit is stupid too, but that's not to say I think those who like it ought not.

[Arek the Absolute]

What the hell? This is exactly what spleen was talking about - you automagically assume I don't know how to do these "tricks". I understand EVs and I've wavedashed in Melee. But that doesn't mean I want to ruin my gaming experience with these things. Just because you can do something advanced doesn't mean that it will make the game more fun.

I play games for fun - not be better than the next guy. So stop assuming that because I don't, I can't. Insulting my intelligence is juvenile.

Forget, this is stupid to argue about. So, uh, how about Fox's new (ugly) face?

THEN DON'T

Note: I also said, play casuals, since you whiny ass crybabies are too full of your opinion that games should be "fun".

I will have fun with the game competitively, and you can have fun with it in your own way.

[supremespleen]

I think most of the crazy advanced shit is stupid too, but that's not to say I think those who like it ought not.

no people have to have fun the same way i have fun

ps i never said evs were a glitch. it's just numbers stuff i don't want to involve myself with while playing a game

[Broken]

YEAH

DON'T TALK ABOUT SUPER SMASH BROTHERS BRAWL IN A THREAD ABOUT IT

IN A GAMING FORUM

CHRIST

Way to take that completely out of context. The first thig I said was "don't start this shit again" as in, don't start the whole "competition/ tourney- good or bad?" debate. It's illegitimate and really isn't about SSB. Talk about the game all you want, but talking about whether or not you like how other people play the game is a moot point. So, drop it.

[atmuh]

What the hell? This is exactly what spleen was talking about - you automagically assume I don't know how to do these "tricks". I understand EVs and I've wavedashed in Melee. But that doesn't mean I want to ruin my gaming experience with these things. Just because you can do something advanced doesn't mean that it will make the game more fun.

I play games for fun - not be better than the next guy. So stop assuming that because I don't, I can't. Insulting my intelligence is juvenile.

Forget, this is stupid to argue about. So, uh, how about Fox's new (ugly) face?

its been said before

but

shut up

[Eulogic]

this thread has never had good discussion

the original smash thread at least had maybe ten pages of it

[The Mutericator]

The thing is, though, this whole wavedashing thing is relevant to Brawl - because Brawl is online. Much like racing against snakers in Mario Kart DS, they probably won't build in an option to not go up against people who use it (wavedashing or whatever little trick people might come up with to replace it), meaning we casual players will have to deal with tourney players.

Naturally people like to play online to get better scores and stuff, but that's why I'm hoping there aren't any advantage-granting exploits like wavedashing left in Brawl - if I go online looking for some good fun, I don't want to have to go against someone who spent a dozen extra hours on the game to learn some trick that grants him an advantage unexpected by the developers. I'm okay if he's practiced more or just better than me, but if it's because he's using something like wavedashing, count me out.

[supremespleen]

The thing is, though, this whole wavedashing thing is relevant to Brawl - because Brawl is online. Much like racing against snakers in Mario Kart DS, they probably won't build in an option to not go up against people who use it (wavedashing or whatever little trick people might come up with to replace it), meaning we casual players will have to deal with tourney players.

Naturally people like to play online to get better scores and stuff, but that's why I'm hoping there aren't any advantage-granting exploits like wavedashing left in Brawl - if I go online looking for some good fun, I don't want to have to go against someone who spent a dozen extra hours on the game to learn some trick that grants him an advantage unexpected by the developers. I'm okay if he's practiced more or just better than me, but if it's because he's using something like wavedashing, count me out.

Not to be a flip flopper, but wavedashing certainly doesn't take dozens of hours. Guys like us'll just have to adapt.

[Dhsu]

I think someone using wavedashing means he practiced more and is just better than you.

[KakTheInfected]

So, I'm not gonna bother reading why this started but wavedashing will probably be fixed in Brawl, unless someone has already shown otherwise.

[Dunther]

I think that the creators of this game don't want to do a game were you can do a wavedash or similar...the characters have a speed...wavedash increase it.

[Arek the Absolute]

I am pretty sure Mario wavedashed in the May 2006 trailer, so you patsies might as well not buy the game now.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

What the hell? This is exactly what spleen was talking about - you automagically assume I don't know how to do these "tricks". I understand EVs and I've wavedashed in Melee. But that doesn't mean I want to ruin my gaming experience with these things. Just because you can do something advanced doesn't mean that it will make the game more fun.

I play games for fun - not be better than the next guy. So stop assuming that because I don't, I can't. Insulting my intelligence is juvenile.

It is a widely known fact that as soon as one learns to wavedash, the game instantly ceases to be fun. Nobody who plays in tourneys actually enjoys the game.

I had more or less quit playing melee a few years ago without even knowing of the existance of wavedashing or any other advanced techniques. When I learned about them, I got back into the game, learned the tricks, and I know play it daily. These advanced tactics are an additional challenge! Challenges are what make games fun. I have a lot more fun with the game now that my brother and I have learned these advanced techniques, primarily because it makes the game so much faster and more exciting.

If you don't like wavedashing, don't do it. If you don't like playing against competetive-level players, don't do it. Nobody's faulting you for it. But seriously, you gotta be a real asshole to want these taken out just to piss off the people who enjoy them.

EDIT: I think what would be really cool would be if there was an option to turn advanced techniques such as wavedashing on and off. That way people who think it somehow ruins the game can completely deactivate it, and those of us who still want to be able to do it will still be able to do it.

[friendlyHunter]

I think the biggest issue is not so much about exploits like wavedashing, but about how similar the game plays to Melee.

If Brawl plays too similarly to Melee, then some people online will have not "a dozen" more hours of experience behind them, but YEARS of Melee experience. And you might say that "if 95% of players are casual, what's the chance of playing against one of the 5% online?". It would be VERY likely, since that 5% would play 50 times more than the other 95%. That's what worries me...

BUT, it appears that while the Brawl characters' moves do look very similar to Melee, all the Melee "subtleties" that Melee pros have engraved in their brains will be thrown out the window, and Brawl will play, to them, like a a whole new game. Learning will begin from square 1 for ALL players.

It also appears, from the videos, that Brawl's gameplay is just plain better. It's almost as if they're trying to level the playing field - moves are faster, jumping is tighter - no more penalty for not knowing exactly what you're doing, for not thinking 3 or 4 moves ahead. It becomes a whole new game - let's just hope there aren't any dumb exploits in it.

What I'm also getting at is that the similarity between Melee's and Brawl's moves, from the looks of it, are mostly aesthetic. They LOOK the same, but chances are the subtleties and stuff that pros care about will be completely different. Heck, to the casual Brawl gamer, that little bit of casual Melee experience could even give you an advantage over the pros - you say "hey, I remember those moves", and use them the basic way you might have used them in Melee, or in Super Smash Bros. Heck, I always tried using my favourite SSB moves in Melee - they all got nerfed and became useless, but at least it made it a little easier to remember what moves NOT to do =p

But why then are the moves so aesthetically similar in Brawl? I think it's simply because HAL fell in love with the moves from SSB and Melee - hell, they're the guys who came up with them in the first place. I, and it seems a lot of us (or just a vocal bunch of us?) here would prefer new moves, ones that have more to do about the original games the characters came from (no, NOT SSB and Melee!). I mean, Smash Bros. DK is slow as hell and can't even roll... not the agile rolling-around guy I know from DKC =( And don't get me started on Samus and Mario again =p

One more tidbit: the new items seem to be aiming (pun not intended) to make the casual gameplay experience new and more interesting. Those who choose to play without items can forego that new element of the game. Everybody wins!

[Edit]

I have a lot more fun with the game now that my brother and I have learned these advanced techniques, primarily because it makes the game so much faster and more exciting.

They should be (and it appears are) making the game more fast and exciting WITHOUT annoying little tricks (or maybe there are new annoying tricks that make it even MORE fast? =P). That was Melee's main downfall in my opinion - not being "fast and exciting" enough for the casual player.

[Arek the Absolute]

Just a note: DK is NOT slow.

Carry on.

[KakTheInfected]

I'm not going to say wavedashing should be taken out. I know how to do it and yeah, I use it alot. Like snaking in Mario Kart DS, it's something you have to learn to use whether you like it or not if you want to be good.

But don't expect something that is obviously an exploit in game mechanics to make a return.