Chiptunes ...?

[PROTO·DOME]

I do think the limitation thing is a null point; DrumUltimA's percussion mix was incredibly limited and passed, plus there's that Zelda Heineken mix which was comprised from sounds from the bottle. I'd imagine the limitations here were a contributing factor to their success.

If anything, limitations force you to be more creative with what you have; and that is so incredibly true with chiptune I don't know where to begin. You can squeeze more harmonic creativity out of those three channels than a jazz pianist has fingers.

But, at the end of the day, I can see the why chiptune would be discouraged and I'm happy to lay back and take it.

[Brandon Strader]

The same exact thing could be said of covers, or mashups. Those aren't what the site is about.

It couldn't really, because those are not 'arrangements' in the ocr sense.

Well, one could argue that you don't need a site like OCR to get your music out there. Look at YouTube, Soundcloud, etc. There are WAY more ways to get your music out there, free of charge, to the same audience

Why is OCR staff always trying to push people away?

[José the Bronx Rican]

Why is OCR staff always trying to push people away?

They won't take the hint on their own. :lol:

I KEED, I KEED!!

[OceansAndrew]

man, seems like there are alot of people here with chips on their shoulders.

*rimshot*

[Rozovian]

Just for reference, inbox ppl, how many pure chiptune submissions does ocr get per year?

[WillRock]

If anything, limitations force you to be more creative with what you have; and that is so incredibly true with chiptune I don't know where to begin. You can squeeze more harmonic creativity out of those three channels than a jazz pianist has fingers.

But, at the end of the day, I can see the why chiptune would be discouraged and I'm happy to lay back and take it.

Protodome has basically hit my thoughts on this whole thing exactly here.

However, it has always seemed to me to be a production issue, rather than an arrangement issue. OCR has production standards as well, and most chiptune music just doesn't cut the mustard where production is concerned. Limitations of instrumentation, regardless of how creative people are with said limitations, has very little to do with it from my standpoint. I'd like to see someone submit a mix with limitations similar to chiptunes forcing some form of creativity as far as sequencing goes without reverting to pure waveforms, because I feel that is where the line is drawn to pass and rejection. Limited instrumentation with good production will warrant the pass assuming its done well. Correct me if i'm wrong judges.

[Tex]

Well, one could argue that you don't need a site like OCR to get your music out there. Look at YouTube, Soundcloud, etc. There are WAY more ways to get your music out there, free of charge, to the same audience, so why do we need to change OCR and make it redundant with those other sites?

Every work on OCR is also posted on Youtube, so it's not like those other sites became redundant as they help spread the music as much as possible.

[zircon]

It couldn't really, because those are not 'arrangements' in the ocr sense.

You're saying the judges enjoy, and people enjoy it, so why don't we accept it. I'm saying that we generally don't make decisions based on those factors. Most people love covers, so why not post those too? Why do we require arrangement at all? People have made the exact same argument about that.

Why is OCR staff always trying to push people away?

It's more that we don't take ourselves so seriously that we think we are the ultimate authority on VGM and VGM covers/arrangements. There is not a lot of sense in doing the exact same thing as other sites when we have our own niche.

Just for reference, inbox ppl, how many pure chiptune submissions does ocr get per year?

According to Larry, in his 4 years of experience running the inbox, we've gotten exactly 1: espergirl 2A03. I'd imagine it didn't change after that.

Every work on OCR is also posted on Youtube, so it's not like those other sites became redundant as they help spread the music as much as possible.

I'm saying we'd be redundant if we just became a site like YouTube or Soundcloud. You can already post ANY kind of music you want, covers, mashups, chiptunes, whatever, in so many other places.

[RushJet1]

According to Larry, in his 4 years of experience running the inbox, we've gotten exactly 1: espergirl 2A03. I'd imagine it didn't change after that.

I submitted one right after that but it got form letter rejected.

For reference, it's this: http://nsf.4x86.com/mp3s/Grim_Determination.mp3

[Tex]

I'm saying we'd be redundant if we just became a site like YouTube or Soundcloud. You can already post ANY kind of music you want, covers, mashups, chiptunes, whatever, in so many other places.

But there are people who only go to this place when it comes to their everyday video game remixes. Ergo, there is nothing overwhelming negative about that.

[Monobrow]

Absolutely agreed, but that kind of thing can't be 'half-assed', can it? I love it when people do that: it clearly shows they care, which goes back to my point that if you're gonna 'chip' us, absent certain production elements, that level of craftsmanship would probably be a minimum requirement.

That's why you let them submit, and you judge it. If it's half assed, you don't pass it

[Brandon Strader]

I apologize for my tone

Same, I am sorry if I came across as heated to anyone. I was just trying to learn more, share some opinions, and if I was too forceful I apologize.

...

You replied to everything I said in this thread as if you were talking to me directly with many of your posts! Please refer to the first thing I said up there at the top ^^^

They won't take the hint on their own. :lol:

I KEED, I KEED!!

Just for reference, inbox ppl, how many pure chiptune submissions does ocr get per year?

If I thought there was any hope of a chiptune passing, I would certainly try to make one for OCR.. even though trackers are beyond my comprehension.. and I'm sure others would too, so that doesn't reaaaaaally prove anything.

I submitted one right after that but it got form letter rejected.

For reference, it's this: http://nsf.4x86.com/mp3s/Grim_Determination.mp3

That was great!

[RushJet1]

I apologize for my tone, and I realize that it's not quite that simple, however I don't think this issue can, or should, be so easily dismissed.

Same, I am sorry if I came across as heated to anyone. I was just trying to learn more, share some opinions, and if I was too forceful I apologize.

On the other hand, I am going to apologize if I did not sound heated enough. Maybe I should type in ALL CAPS and BOLDED and IN RED!

[Xenon Odyssey]

This is why my remix that won zircon's contest a couple of years ago didn't get posted; it wasn't true chiptune, but it adhered to the '3 channels + drums' format, thus making it not suitable for the site. Of course, it wasn't like I was expecting to win but I still feel bad all the same.

Obviously, the solution to all of this is to create that 'OverTracked Chiptunes' site! Or I suppose VGMix would qualify too...

[KyleJCrb]

This is why my remix that won zircon's contest a couple of years ago didn't get posted; it wasn't true chiptune, but it adhered to the '3 channels + drums' format, thus making it not suitable for the site. Of course, it wasn't like I was expecting to win but I still feel bad all the same.

Obviously, the solution to all of this is to create that 'OverTracked Chiptunes' site! Or I suppose VGMix would qualify too...

Or there's always ThaSauce.

[José the Bronx Rican]

That's why you let them submit, and you judge it. If it's half assed, you don't pass it

Well, not me, 'cause I'm no judge ;P But, hey, by all means. I like a challenge as much as anybody, and going by what Larry says, I think the J's could stand more attempts to be the 'one' that gets through. The guideline can be seen as a reminder to those who are not masters of this 'chip' craft (or the ones holding their breath for that 'instant dubstep' app) to simply be aware of the odds.

[Brandon Strader]

It's worth some real consideration I think.

If someone made a mix that had only mellotron sounds, would it pass?

Judges may say mellotrons are "low quality samples", but mellotrons are incredibly expensive and highly sought after for music, as far back as what... the 50s? They have a distinct sound that can be used in pretty much any genre... I'm not trying to compare mellotrons to chiptunes by any means, but as far as OCR goes I'd like to know where they draw the line.

Is someone going to reply "It doesn't matter if you spent $500,000 for a mellotron, I don't think it sounds good enough! It has no 'articulations'!"

Here is an example of what I would call mellotron music, although it does have vocals and some subdued percussion.

I know it's not about "how much samples cost", but a judge said LA Scoring Strings was low quality samples in a recent song of mine that got no'd, so it'd be cool to know where the line is drawn with stuff... goodnight for now.

[Monobrow]

To Jose: Yeah *_*

Also I'd take chiptunes over dubstep any day of the week. But that's just me.

[DrumUltimA]

I do think the limitation thing is a null point; DrumUltimA's percussion mix was incredibly limited and passed, plus there's that Zelda Heineken mix which was comprised from sounds from the bottle. I'd imagine the limitations here were a contributing factor to their success.

If anything, limitations force you to be more creative with what you have; and that is so incredibly true with chiptune I don't know where to begin. You can squeeze more harmonic creativity out of those three channels than a jazz pianist has fingers.

But, at the end of the day, I can see the why chiptune would be discouraged and I'm happy to lay back and take it.

Yes! So here's what's up with this:

I always have, and probably always will, viewed OCR as a website that favors production values more than arrangement values. Some (including zircon and dave) might disagree with that statement, but I really do. My all-percussion mix was placed under an arrangement limitation (in part derived from the source): one type of instrument. However, from a production standpoint, it wasn't too bad. The instruments were all live, which already provides a greater complexity of sound.

As for my arrangement: I have to say, I really don't think it was brilliant. I tried to be smart about the source--stating it verbatim in the beginning and end (but with addition accompaniment), and then mixing and matching fragments of it to provide the foundation for a "solo section" in the middle. No brilliant transformation or transcendence happened from my treatment of the source material. As a composition, nothing groundbreaking.

I think a good example of a website that places arrangement over production quality would be (despite not being video game related,) youngcomposers.com. Most of the time, you're submitting midi realizations of Finale and Sibelius scores, and are being evaluated purely on their compositional structure and content. I certainly wouldn't want to play any of those at a party (unless it was a nerdy composer party or something).

So for that reason, it doesn't really surprise me that brilliant chiptunes get rejected from this site, for the same reason that brilliant midi realizations off Finale or brilliant recordings of live concerts using your iPhone camera wouldn't get accepted. An absolutely brilliant arrangement might help a low-quality product get accepted, but a high production level will almost guarantee a mediocre arrangement get passed given it adheres to the submission standards. I think that's fine--that's just what the site is about. I mean, it's much harder to be picky about super-subjective musical criteria pertaining to the quality/depth/construction of somebody's arrangement anyway--and quite frankly, I don't know if I would trust the judges to make those types of judgement calls. It's extremely subjective.

So getting back to my remix, the reason those limitations worked were because while they placed limitations on the parameters of my arrangement, they did not limit the parameters of my production quality. While a chiptune, when written authentically, does limit the arrangement parameters, it consequently limits the production values drastically--thus severely limiting any chance of it being passed.

ps zircon if you disagree with me please don't fire me

[zircon]

I know it's not about "how much samples cost", but a judge said LA Scoring Strings was low quality samples in a recent song of mine that got no'd, so it'd be cool to know where the line is drawn with stuff... goodnight for now.

Don't know what kind of answers you're fishing for, but it really has nothing to do with money at all. We don't care what samples you're using. People have made very expensive samples sound bad and free samples sound great. All that matters is how the sum of everything sounds in the end.

[Sam Ascher-Weiss]

Yes! So here's what's up with this:

I always have, and probably always will, viewed OCR as a website that favors production values more than arrangement values. Some (including zircon and dave) might disagree with that statement, but I really do. My all-percussion mix was placed under an arrangement limitation (in part derived from the source): one type of instrument. However, from a production standpoint, it wasn't too bad. The instruments were all live, which already provides a greater complexity of sound.

As for my arrangement: I have to say, I really don't think it was brilliant. I tried to be smart about the source--stating it verbatim in the beginning and end (but with addition accompaniment), and then mixing and matching fragments of it to provide the foundation for a "solo section" in the middle. No brilliant transformation or transcendence happened from my treatment of the source material. As a composition, nothing groundbreaking.

I think a good example of a website that places arrangement over production quality would be (despite not being video game related,) youngcomposers.com. Most of the time, you're submitting midi realizations of Finale and Sibelius scores, and are being evaluated purely on their compositional structure and content. I certainly wouldn't want to play any of those at a party (unless it was a nerdy composer party or something).

So for that reason, it doesn't really surprise me that brilliant chiptunes get rejected from this site, for the same reason that brilliant midi realizations off Finale or brilliant recordings of live concerts using your iPhone camera wouldn't get accepted. An absolutely brilliant arrangement might help a low-quality product get accepted, but a high production level will almost guarantee a mediocre arrangement get passed given it adheres to the submission standards. I think that's fine--that's just what the site is about. I mean, it's much harder to be picky about super-subjective musical criteria pertaining to the quality/depth/construction of somebody's arrangement anyway--and quite frankly, I don't know if I would trust the judges to make those types of judgement calls. It's extremely subjective.

So getting back to my remix, the reason those limitations worked were because while they placed limitations on the parameters of my arrangement, they did not limit the parameters of my production quality. While a chiptune, when written authentically, does limit the arrangement parameters, it consequently limits the production values drastically--thus severely limiting any chance of it being passed.

ps zircon if you disagree with me please don't fire me

Interestingly enough Doug.. we kind of spent several pages explaining why chiptune doesn't actually LIMIT production values by any objective measuring stick. They are just as complex in many ways from a production perspective as recording a solo instrument. From timbral shifts combined with all kinds of volume macros, echo techniques a miriad of arpeggiation methods that create entirely new timbres, not to mention how these things are used in conjunction across multiple channels to create unique sounds through combinations etc... I could go on at length.. people have, entire message boards with thousands of users are devoted to nothing other than aspects of chiptunes which have NOTHING to do with composition.

[Krakozhia]

Oh god, what have I done?? O_O Does this happen all the time here?

[RoeTaKa]

Oh god, what have I done?? O_O Does this happen all the time here?

Lol yeah pretty much mate. In short chiptunes are awesome but ocremix doesn't want them, they dare you to try but they really should say they do not accept them because you get these long opinionated arguments (which are all fair to some respect) that just open the wound. But you can use it like a gimmick which yknow is a bit like saying a song made out of pitched farts is unacceptable but if your song sounds cool with a pitched fart that's made to sound like a tuba then that's ok as long as it sounds awesome. Actually you might have better luck with a choir of farts than a chiptune, that's a big might though

[Jason Covenant]

Oh god, what have I done?? O_O Does this happen all the time here?

Relax. It's just a discussion of site standards. Yes, it's common here.

[DarkeSword]

That's why you let them submit, and you judge it. If it's half assed, you don't pass it

That's what we do.