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wavedashing is simply taking advantage of a bug in the game. should it be illegal? no. should it be a feature in the next iteration? absolutely not. its a bug and was never intended to be there. it should be fixed. however im not going to complain if someone uses it in melee.

its just like exploits in sequence breaking/speed runs. take advantage now while you can, but theyll be fixed in the next iteration, in which new bugs will be found and exploited.

The best example of this in a recent game is a BR doubleshot or the double-beat in Halo 2/3. In my opinion, it's an exploit of a bug and really shouldn't exist anymore. Wavelanding does make sense now with gliding as it's continuation of momentum, but before it definitely shouldn't have existed.

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But it's so funny!


Of all people, no less.

Wow, this is the first thread I've ever visited on this forum. The guy complaining is ridiculous enough as it is, but in the first page people said "get over it", "deal with it", "too late", "live with it", and "quit being whiny brats". So yeah, I pretty much hate that whole community now. My god.

That said, the whole "fall over with direction change" deal ought to be interesting. I don't think it's a bad thing, but I think it'll definitely make people think a little more carefully instead of just button mashing as fast as possible.

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Hey fellas, don't you reckon it's time we let up on this wavedashing crap?

The way I see it, I love Super Smash as much as the next guy, but truth is I never even knew what wavedashing was until I started posting in this thread. Sure I didn't play it "competitively" as some of you guys do, so I'm probably not up to your so-called "league" or "standards", but all I do know is that if my friends would come round, we would bring out the Smash and it would be a riot!

We never knew about wavedashing or any other of those technical names bestowed upon *bugs* in the game, and we were better for it. Super Smash is about enjoying the game for what it is, not trying to find exploits in the system to become better or gain some false-satisfaction in the standards of your own skill. Wavedashing is called a *bug* for a reason.

So I reckon we should just let up on all this WD crap and focus on what is actually going to be in the game. I dunno, maybe it's just because updates were kinda slow this week or something.

Yeah you can say I just continued the WD topic by posting this, but if you posted to say that you'd just be continuing the useless topic anyway...so let's end it there.

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As has been said before. Wavedashing is very much a part of high-level play in melee. It, along with other advanced techniques, changes the game completely. Anybody claiming Wavedashing isn't -- or shouldn't be -- an integral part of a good game of high level Melee is deluding themselves.

However, this new game isn't Melee 2.0. It's Brawl. Some of the old exploits are taken out, some new ones will no doubt be discovered.

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As has been said before. Wavedashing is very much a part of high-level play in melee. It, along with other advanced techniques, changes the game completely. Anybody claiming Wavedashing isn't -- or shouldn't be -- an integral part of a good game of high level Melee is deluding themselves.

However, this new game isn't Melee 2.0. It's Brawl. Some of the old exploits are taken out, some new ones will no doubt be discovered.

I guess this sums it all up really.

There wasn't really too much of a ruckus here about wavedashing here. Mostly on Smashboards... I wonder though what little technical tricks will be found in Brawl. Guess we'll all find out.

As for direction air dodging vs. kinetic air dodging, I like the idea of both. I don't know which I like better. Directional air dodging allows for more mind game possibilities while kinetic air dodging makes us have to take a step back to consider if the air dodging we're about to do is a wise decision or not for it may lead to dire circumstances.

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Wow. Some of you guys need to let up on this. I really wanted to say what DuskyFerret already has, but he did it well, so you can just read that again if you want to know what I think. WD (and plenty of other glitches/bugs/exploits from Melee) will be cut when we get Brawl. But none of those things make a fun game; I played Melee for a good five years off and on with no knowledge of these "tourney-level skills", and enjoyed it immensely. Still do, in fact. The fact we can enjoy a six year old game (and I play it more than games that came out yesterday) says something about it.

Besides, whatever they take out, you guys will find another weird thing in the physics engine to screw with.


You think too much. Just spam lasers.


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Well since characters have a double jump, I never thought anyone would be bothered that much by another velocity change for a airdodge. Wavedashing has opened up an entirely new defense for me, which I have been victim too as well. This leads to having multiple approaches and allows mindgames to come into play more. Offensively, wavedashing has changed eveything for me too. Waveshining, wavelanding, and grabbing the ledge off of a waveland are all amazing techniques I have only began to use recently.

I would like to point out this article (I haven't sifted through the 500 pages of this thread, sorry if it's a repost) playing to win.

Considering all of the characters (although it is more useful for some) can wavedash and any player can do it, I see no problem with it.

edit: did i say 500? i meant 807 pages.

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Good jesus, this is fucking stupid.

Ok, they had the demo for play at NOA (some of the DigiPen students got to go over today and play it before they took it away), and SO MANY people at the school, especially people from our Smash Club, bitched that WD'ing wasn't in.

You know what? The bottom line is that if you HAVE to WD to win, you don't deserve to win. Most people I fight who use WD'ing use it so that they can move and charge/use a Smash attack at the same time, for instance. Think about this. To Smash attack on the ground, you must be stationary. This is according to the basic rules of the game. It's why Crouch Canceling to a Smash attack is so effective and necessary if you have to run at an opponent.

WD'ing allows you to move AND Smash attack at the same time. Thus, this breaks the basic rules of the game. Cheating is defined as breaking the basic rules of the game. So, by correlation, if you WD, you are cheating. This is regardless of whether WD'ing is a trick, an exploit, an 'advanced movement technique', a glitch, or whatever. Who cares why or how it's there; it's cheating.

Deal with it.

If you can't win without WD'ing, or if you use WD'ing instinctively, or if you say it 'deepens' the game, you are wrong. You only want WD'ing in so that you can win more; admit it, because the more you whine about how it's 'really better for everyone', the less respect we have for you because you're a whiny bitch hiding behind some false presence. You want to win, and that's ok, but only if you are legit.

Jesus Christ.

--Jack Kieser

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New SmashBros, new rules.

I loved WD-ing... but... seriously, for all the new stuff they're adding in I'm okay with it. I just have to come to terms with the fact that Wavedashing was actually an exploit and was just an overlooked move from Melee. That's the toughest part.

I would imagine all of the "advanced techniques" we're used to will be gone. I mean, all Nintendo has to do is look at the move repositories all over the internet and make fixes for the movements. Nintendo wants the game by their rules: they don't want the player's figuring out ways to exploit their controls... which, has its pros and cons.

It will certainly level the playing field between the newbies and seasoned players, but not enough that a new player will just own a good player. Like it's been said above, if you can't play without Wavedashing then you better re-learn by February... and if it is the case that you'll lose to mediocre player with out WD-ing, then lets face it, you're just bad at Smash Bros.

On one hand, since I like to WD, I'm a little sad to see it go, but since Nitnendo is refining the game to how they want it, it makes me a little more comfortable in the overall balance of the game. I think this game will be well-balanced, especially with the cleanup surrounding "advanced techniques."

I seriously doubt there will be many moves in Brawl like WaveDashing. Nintendo wants it by the book so a new player will see what a seasoned player does, and will know how to do it. Nintendo as a company doesn't tend to like really secret moves... they just don't do it, so I'm willing to bet if there even are "advanced techniques" that people somehow learn, that there will only be like one or two. My money is on Nintendo cleaning up the control functions so much that the game will almost exactly how Nintendo wants people to play it.

I'm cool with it. Again, it was said earlier by someone else, but New Brawl, New style of play. I doubt anyone would say "SCREW THIS GAME, I REFUSE TO PLAY IT BECAUSE OF NO WAVEDASHING!" All these people just need to stop complaining. Bitching and moaning will not get the functionality back into the game. Nintendo doesn't want it there since it's been removed. Nothnig we can do about it. Nothing. At. All. So deal and move on. The game looks fantastic, and still will require skill to play. Different from Melee.

So you've got 4 months to get used to it. . .

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Good jesus, this is fucking stupid.

Ok, they had the demo for play at NOA (some of the DigiPen students got to go over today and play it before they took it away),

At first I thought you you posting to complain that you didn't get to play it ^^

Cheating is defined as breaking the basic rules of the game. So, by correlation, if you WD, you are cheating.

You mean "by definition"?

[/lame math joke]

There is no rule that says "Thou shalt smash only while standing", so it's not breaking any "basic rules of the game", and by constipation, it's not cheating.

Ha ha! I didn't think I'd be joining the WD discussion, but here I am. Why are so many so passionate about this issue anyway? It's about the biggest ridiculous nerd-war I've ever seen =p

You want to win, and that's ok, but only if you are legit.

Jack Kieser.

--Jesus Christ

I am by no means a fan of wavedashing... I think that it's generally bad design to include moves that are physically difficult to do (for MOST OF US!!!). Who said anything about "design" though - wave dashing is a bug, and bugs are not normally "designed". WD might be an exception though, all that "the developers knew it was there" jazz. However, wave dashing is NOT cheating.

Consider the high-jump at the Olympic games. Back in the day, athletes would try to get over the bar however they felt like, usually head-first. Then some guy named Fosbury found out that you could go over backwards, arching your back so that you could get over a much higher bar with a lower/same centre of mass. Now EVERYBODY does it this new way. Was it intended when the sport was invented? Of course not! Is it cheating? Hell no! Cheating means it's not allowed - and if wavedashing is allowed in tournaments, then it's by no means cheating.

Who cares why or how it's there; it's cheating.

When you say "cheating", perhaps you actually mean to use a different word? Unless you're talking single player Melee, in which case nobody cares if you cheat =p And blah blah blah speed runs, blah blah exploits etc.

Anyway, here's my theory to WHY wavedashing might be such a "hot-button" topic: the people who don't want to do it don't like to play against people who do (and either don't want to learn it, or don't enjoy the style of play it creates), and the people who like it LOVE it - they like the new style of play, and they like any advantage it gives. GENERALLY, I mean; I'm not attempting to label everyone.

Also generally: if you're playing against your friend, and he wants to you stop wavedashing, for the love of Fox do what he says, you're taking the fun out of the game! If you set informal "rules" between each other, and you be an ass and break those rules, then yes, maybe that could be considered "cheating".

To those who use wavedashing in tournaments: if there aren't any rules against it, go nuts! If anyone complains about other combatants using WD-ing in a tournament, they're in the wrong place. What I mean is: the main goal of the tournament is trying to win by any means nessesary (which many find fun for obvious reasons), as opposed to simply having fun playing a game. I think some confusion there is what started and continued to kindle that lame debate way back in the Great Brawl Information Drought of '07.

I'm sorry, my post had practically nothing to do with Brawl. I'm glad WDing is gone... Nintendo's trying to design a new style of play and make it as good as possible, rather than having the community invent their own completely different style based on bugs/exploits. I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks Nintendo wants to base their biggest upcoming title's gameplay on exploits is nuts. Now I'm just waiting for the Olympic "High Jump 2" event where the "Fosbury Flop" is not allowed, and the poll is on fire and continually spinning.

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FriendlyHunter, I don't think you understood what I meant when I said 'rules of the game' and what is considered 'cheating'.

When I said that the rules of the game say you can't move and perform a Smash attack at the same time, I mean the game's coding. The 'rules' of the game itself. In order for your button inputs to be interpreted as 'Smash attack', you have to be standing still, or else you do your dashing attack. That's how the game is coded.

Now, consider Wavesmashing. It allows you to circumvent this mechanic. 'Cheating' is generally considered to be 'breaking the rules'. Well, if 'You have to be standing still to Smash attack' is a rule, and Wavedashing allows you to break that rule, then you are cheating when you Wavedash. Simple as that.

And as for the high-jump metaphor... not applicable. See, the position your body was in as it sailed over the bar was not ever written in the rules of high-jumping, so the first dude to arch his back (et cetera) wasn't breaking any rules when he did so. Thus, a new technique was discovered. As we have established, WD'ing DOES break the rules of the game, and so it should not be allowed.

Oh, and it's allowed in tournaments because people don't think it's cheating. Just cause it's allowed there, though, doesn't change the fact that it is, in fact, cheating the system of the game.

And, yeah, that pretty much why it is such a big deal. Basically, us who don't/can't/won't use WD'ing think it's a bug/glitch/expolit that wasn't intended for play, thus shouldn't be used, while people who DO use it don't want to give up any advantage at all so that they never risk losing ever ever. Generally. After all, don't want to speak in absolutes.

--Jack Kieser

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If the definition of what cheating is goes "what is not allowed", then WD is obviously cheating. Nintendo just can't update the rulebook too often, if you get my analogy.

I wonder how crucial the "match-the-stage-music-rythm" component is in Donkey Kong's final smash. If it's a big deal then I won't be able to use other music ever, as my friend is a DK main.

*still waiting for young link*

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I mean the game's coding.

So SSB is really an advanced AI that can evolve beyond its original code?

If you can do it in the game, then it's in the coding. Period. Whether this was an unintended loophole the designers overlooked is irrelevant. It's still allowed by the game, or it would not be possible to do.

Also, tournament play is the highest level of play, thus those rules are the law of the game.

So, if it's possible to do in the game, and is allowable in tournament play, then it is in no way shape or form cheating!

This is of course excluding the previously mentioned casual play rules you and your friends set up.

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I'm sorry, but as I said, tournament play is irrelevant. Accepted tourney rules were not made and/or sanctioned by Nintendo or HAL Labs, so who cares what they decide?

And, the 'If you can do it in the game, then it's in the coding' argument, as someone who studies game coding, is outright untrue. There will ALWAYS be circumstances that a coder does not foresee. Any playtester will tell you that people break games in ways that no coder or designer would think of in their wildest dreams. People broke Melee with Wavedashing. Simple as that. Wavedashing breaks a fundamental hard-coded gameplay mechanic. The only reason people don't see it like that is because it helps them win, and people don't like to lose.

Original design always trumps because we will always find ways to try to fuck with that design. That just how gamers work.

--Jack Kieser

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Wavedashing definitely is an exploit. The word 'exploit' describes it technically as well as figuratively.

Also, a lot of serious tournaments do ban a few moves or set stipulations too. Gamers using all at their disposal to win is not very professional at all. I don't know where all these crazy tourney myths came from. Just about every tournaments sets up strict stipulations as far as exploits go. This is a foregone conclusion.

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Ok get ready for lots of impressions. I'll try not to get too explanation trigger happy.

Overall - Its an upgrade of Melee, which is pretty much what we want so in other words its coming together very well. It sounds like its going to have some great music.


Mario - He's Mario, not much to say. His FS is basic but really powerful. If you're caught in the fire blast you're basically dead.

Pikachu - Pikachu seems similar too. Really not much to say. His FS is powerful but its kind of easy to avoid and block. Very few Pikachu's ever did well.

Donkey Kong - I never saw a single person use him, ever.

Peach - She's as annoying as ever and I feel like the umbrella makes you float even more. Her FS I know is controvertial but if it really does change with moods I think it goes with her intentionally irritating style pretty well.

Fox - God people are such whiners. He was not nerfed -that- much. In fact he's still very good. He feels balanced. Landmaster Tank is a fun as well FS.

Samus - The Missile got boosted a bit, it goes much faster now though it starts slow. Okay her FS is pretty awesome, it does much more damage in game than videos make it look and its very impressive looking. When she turns into...

Zero Suit Samus - She becomes a total stun/bitch hit tactic keep away character. She's pretty much as she should be I think, a survivor. She's swift but she feels nothing like Sheik so she's definitely not the "new Sheik". Her style is quite different. When she gets a smash ball her armor comes back and when it does a shockwave comes out and damages everyone around her. Its pretty decent itself.

The system may turn out to be kind of a novelty I think but its really fun.

Yoshi - Bread and Butter Yoshi. Even his FS where he grows Angel wings and shoots fire is kind of plain, but its effective.

Metaknight - Cheapness in a bottle. He is soooooooo cheap. He can do the thing Kirby used to do in SSB where Final Cutter can act as a Meteor Smash. He swipes so fast too that its hard to do anything. I saw a lot of cheap deaths thanks to him. He floats pretty well too. However to make up for it I think he has the most underwhelming FS of them all so far. It looks epic at first but it ends up being just one big giant slash. Is ok...but its not very impressive.

Ike - As I said Ike is a monster. He is really good. He has noticable startup time for his smashes, which is good because if he had Marth like strike speed he'd easilly be broken. Everything else Ike does is extremely damaging, and he has insane priority and reach. A lot of his moves swipe in huge arcs. His speed is also decent and his Final Smash is awesome. Swipes, and if the swipe connects to an opponent he knocks them in the air and does a pretty epic looking auto combo. Camera even pans out to show it. Big screen sized slashes. Afterwards he does one final strike right down to the ground again with the opponent, anyone who's in the way of it gets sent flying too.

Think of Omnislash but with lots of fire. Its a really good FS. Oh and he does have counter too. His Up B is a combination of Dolphin Slash and Final Cutter...he throws the sword up then jumps up to catch it then comes down again. As a recovery it takes some getting used to.

Pit - Pit is excellent. He is such a parasite to get rid of because his floating ability is superb. Those arrows are annoying as fuck, and when someone knew how to use him his attacks were very swift and flowy. His FS is as epic in the game as it looks in the shots, and its very very powerful and effective. Its my favorite so far.

Sonic - Oh man...Sonic is deceptively fast. He starts out decently speedy and swift, but if you run or do a spinattack that changes in an instant and suddenly you're going almost too fast. He can run across Eldin Bridge in literally 4 seconds, his running is that fast. I killed myself a lot with him because it takes some getting used to but I think he has a lot of potential. People already started getting good with him.

He can predictably chase down smash balls with ease so expect to see Super Sonic a lot. Super Sonic is pretty good too. Not an apocalyptic move but it'll shake things up.

Link - Shadow Link color is awesome. Black clothes and they even got the red glowing eyes. Anyways he's same old Link but he feels a little less clunky and a bit speedier. Still a lockjaw as far as thats concerned but its noticable. Can't say I know much else about him but his Final Smash is pretty cool. You've all seen it by now. How it ends after the combo is he slashes across a good deal of the screen. Anything in the way takes damage.

The new Boomerang is really fun too, I bet people are going to get really creative with it.

Diddy - He's quite fun to use. Not too much experience from me personally but many others used him. He seems like a good beginner character because he's speedy but solid. His FS is like Sonic's, not apocalyptic but its solid.

Bowser - He'll still need practice but I feel like his mechanics were retweaked a bit. He seems the same but he landed hits a bit easier so I think his special move startup speed got a bit of a boost. Doing Koopa Twirl near an enemy does a lot more damage and knock-off than before. Koopa Klaw is his coolest new feature. It catches a bit easier, and instead of that wussy bite/shoulder he does a full blown spinning piledriver. Its very impressive looking and it can be followed up with another move it looks like. I need to play him more to see how he turns out.

Giga Bowser is really really impressive when playing with a crowd. If he flicks you it sends you flying, he's that powerful. But the problem is even catching the opponents, I think it'll take practice too but its very fun.


Norfair - Think Brinstar but the "lava" comes from the sides as well, and one big wave comes and a small little safety section appears you can go into (complete with Metroid doors.)

Bridge of Eldin - Long. Middle breaks and rebuilds at random. Thats pretty much it. Pretty

Del Fino - Its like a less chaotic Rainbow Cruise. Its decent.

Animal Crossing - Kind of a plain stage gameplay wise, it'll probably be more of a novelty stage thanks to the day/night thing.

Castle Siege - Its three stages that switch back and fourth. Its decent but the music sounds -godly-. Its Fire Emblem after all.

The Halberd - Very exciting stage. It amy seem like one platform but it changes as the ship comes around and you board it. The music sounds pretty nice.

Big Laser comes out and shoots a targetted opponent. I bet this would be a fun stage to fire Samus' FS.

Lylat Cruise - Its pretty plain. The background looks cool, thats kind of it.

Pokemon Stadium - Looks almost exactly as it did in Melee, the stuff on the arena just changes to new environments.

All the characters have intro animations again!

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Great info Kyosuki. I've been wondering how good certain characters were going to be, namely Ike and Fox. I'm sure when the game comes out though, clever people will think of new ways to make different characters competitive. (Bowser is going to be top tier, lol.)

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