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I don't understand this. I'm good enough to win fights with or without items. It's that simple. In what I've seen, whether items are on or off has no bearing on a player's skill; the same people who win do well. The people who do badly do badly. It's not like I'll win five fights in a row and then as soon as items are turned on my opponent starts winning.

First of all, certain characters DO naturally have items/projectiles, but these characters are meant to have the items they have, and were taken into the consideration of the balance of the game. "Will I slash you with the beam sword?" That's pretty much saying "Am I going to use a close range attack?" Only certain characters were designed to be able to pose the question, "Will I attack you close range or use a projectile?"

Items are COMPLETELY random. So are the crates that drop out of nowhere and tend to drop right on one player's head.

So what if they appear randomly? Oh, look, a crate spawned above me. I'd better dodge to get out of the way. Action/reaction. Simple as that.

I hear people say this all the time; items are part of the game, and you're taking them out. Now, try to be open minded about this. Items throw off the balance of the game. BADLY. Does this matter for people who play casually and don't care? NO. So these people can play with items - it makes the game more fun for them. I'm perfectly fine with that. More power to them. But Melee is able to be played like a party game, AND a competitive fighter. Listen:

Items were put into the game.

So was the option to turn them off.

This isn't rocket science, folks. People can play casually or seriously.

You say that items throw off the balance of the game badly. Personally, I never see this happen, because all of the items themselves are balanced. The home run bat does ludicrous damage, but it's slow as all hell. A good player can avoid that. The fan is quick, but does low damage and has low stopping power. But it can break shields. The star rod has projectiles and bludgeoning capability, but its projectiles are slow-moving and have a large charge time. THERE IS A COUNTER TO EVERY ITEM. USE IT.

We're not talking about instant-kill rocket launchers here, folks. These items fit within the game because they themselves are balanced. It doesn't matter if they appear randomly.

Items throw off the balance of the game, that's a fact. Some people don't like this, and they have good reason, for the way they play. Remember what I said about the Chess players? This is ridiculous. I mean if they made a version of Chess that had lots of fun random things that happened, some people would like it more than regular Chess. There are a lot of people who are very competitive with Chess though, so obviously there would be people who play regular Chess, and people who play chaotic Chess. That should be fine with everyone. You can choose which way you wish to play. But for the chaotic Chess players to demand that chaotic Chess be the only way to play is outrageous! Why would they want to ruin it for the people who play competitively?

Chess is completely, 100% based on strategy. Putting items and stuff into it would be completely ridiculous. But this is Super Smash Bros. we're talking about here. It's not like the items make no sense within the game's context.

First of all, certain characters DO naturally have items/projectiles, but these characters are meant to have the items they have, and were taken into the consideration of the balance of the game. "Will I slash you with the beam sword?" That's pretty much saying "Am I going to use a close range attack?" Only certain characters were designed to be able to pose the question, "Will I attack you close range or use a projectile?"

You can't always counter the item's effect correctly. Crates randomly fall on people's heads. Also, like I said earlier, certain items with certain characters completely throw off the balance of the game. Marth for instance has no projectiles, but for a reason. His attacks have incredible range, and he has really good priority. In terms of balance, he sacrifices projectiles for something else. If two Marth players who have practiced everything they could and had all the best combos for every single situation memorized and everything, a ray gun or something just being randomly handed to one of them is ridiculous.

What you're saying is that items give characters abilities they shouldn't have had earlier. But EVERY ITEM HAS A WEAKNESS. Look, Marth is a close-range character. Now he has a ray gun. So, yes, he has a capability he didn't have before. But, the ray gun has the same effect as with any other character. Other players can defend against the projectiles. It's not like Marth gets a super-power ability with the ray gun that no other character has. It's the same damn ray gun. Counter it.

Items are completely random, and it's not a matter of having to be good enough to deal with them. Go give a grandmaster of Chess a version of this chaotic chess with random crap that happens and say "Hey, if you're actually good you'd be able to deal with the randomness." It doesn't work like that.

And by the very nature of random items, it ensures fairness. Do you think it's possible that one player will get every single item every match? No. Also, battles over coveted items also provide a bit of strategy. Do I make a run for the beam sword, or take a defensive stance? It adds mind games.

The chess analogy doesn't work simply because chess is designed to be a completely strategic experience. Items fit within Smash Bros.' context. Every one has a strength and a weakness. Use them to your advantage.

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all this argument about whats what in tournament play is part of the reason i dont care all that much to participate in it, by the way

I agree to some extent, but maybe most competitive players aren't like this. It just seems like they're playing to boost their ego more than having fun. That's why I don't play in most tournaments.

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I don't honestly understand why people get an "ego" from playing a video game.

A VIDEO GAME.

Now, I'm saying that with the idea that I've been playing video games for a long time and I'm fairly good at some of them. But being arrogant because you can beat someone at a video game? That's pretty ludicrous. That's why I laugh when I play Halo and completely suck, and people call it "skill." The only skills learned from a video game are those pertinent to THAT video game.

Being a good sniper in Halo doesn't mean you'll be great with a sniper rifle in real life, nor does ultra-leet Smashing skills translate over in to real life.

It's a fricken game, stop taking it so seriously.

(BTW, I agree with the items people. Items make the game fun)

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I used to buy into that no items battlefield junk back in the day, when I was playing smash every day and trying to get a lot better. Nowadays, the only thing I like to turn off is the Ice Climber level since it's kind of annoying. That's it. Most people dislikethat level, though, to be honest, the sheer ammount of high vertical jumps that are required for the level really make certain characters shine that otherwise are difficult to play on mainly level playing fields, such as Mewtwo or Ness.

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What's with the arguing?? And why on earth am I reading it...? :oops:

Nobody's telling anybody to play a certain way (but if you really are, then DON'T!!), and they can't force you to play a certain way from all the way on the other end of the internet tubes, so who cares? I'm scared to see what kind of dumb debates will spring up online in Brawl *shudder*

But to add to the debate (ACK, what am I doing??!?!) - while the chess analogy is pretty damn good, it's not solid. Here's a sports analogy: Imagine a game of pro soccer where barells would randomly appear on random players for no apparent reason. And if the player happens to be kicking the ball when a barrel appears on them (and it often does), they explode into a massive fireball reaching 10 meters into the air - and are subsiquently too injured to play.

Is that fair? NO! Is it fun? MAYBE, if you have some kind of sick yearning for random chaos and injury. People have different tastes - but in a tournament, there's no reason items should be manditory. Evening the playing field for competition calls for rules, and often, elimination of unfair randomness.

(Rant time!) And I seriously hope barells/boxes/capsules/ exploding those things can be individually turned off in Brawl... actually, I hope they're not even in the game (OH NOES I'm hoping to limit the way everyone else plays SSBB =O !!). Hey, here's an idea: the default items in Brawl could actually be good and fun, but there could be an option to turn on the "classic" items and exploding barrel-death-traps-of-doom for those players who can't let go of the past. It's my opinion that the items and their attrocious containers (coupled with dumb AI) ruined the single player adventure/classic/allstars/whatever modes... you can't "adapt" to things appearing in front of you after you start a move, and killing you before you finish it.

BTW I suck at SSBM, and I very well may never have played it without items (what can I say, they often make it more enjoyable)

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ed;237377']Well' date=' yeah. But it's not like every time you start a game, the amp is re-arranged, either. Items can throw a curve that adds the need for adaptation. If a Marth player is given a ray gun, and the opponent is a serious enough player to give a crap, he also should care enough to have trained to the point that it doesn't matter [i']what the enemy has.

'sides, he could always just run to the other side of Hyrule Castle.:roll:

Ok first of all, nobody who plays competitively plays Hyrule. That stage is horrible. The main stages played competitively are Final Destination, Dreamland, Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, and Pokemon Stadium. And then we have this crap:

If a Marth player is given a ray gun, and the opponent is a serious enough player to give a crap, he also should care enough to have trained to the point that it doesn't matter what the enemy has.
You really must not be putting much thought into this...just think about this for a second. If two masters of the game are playing each other - two people who BOTH try to be as good as humanly possible - then it isn't about "well a good player can play against anything." They are going to want to fight a FAIR match so that they can determine who the winner is without knowing that the person who won only won because of sheer luck with items.

first of all. what your saying with the chess analogy is that SSB was balanced before the addition of items in the programming stage. like taking chess then adding randomness. you see, ssb was made with the randomness in mind. it's a part of the game.

This doesn't make sense. Can you clarify what randomness they had in mind before items and crazy stages? SSB has a wonderful balanced system of fighting. On top of that basic system, you can add items and crazy stages which just make the game chaotic and everything.

the fact that you can turn the items off doesn't make no-item games be the "serious" game.

Thanks for reading my posts. Really, thanks. I guess you didn't even read the big text I put in, so I'll explain this again: I'm not saying everyone should play without items! I've said this before, and tried to make it very clear. I am being told to "stop being a baby and turn on items." Remember my first post in this argument? I responded to that with this:
but seriously, the game can be played 2 different ways. i dont see why that's so hard to accept. items are in the game, so is the option to turn them off. im fine knowing that some people play the game different than the way i do, and use items and crazy stages. im glad they are enjoying the game. you're the one whos saying "NO EVERYONE MUST PLAY THE WAY I DO" so who's the baby?

Moving on...

turning them off just shows the customization that is optional. all poke-balls? sure! hammers and stars? suure! nothing at all? sure! everything on high? absolutely!
As I have said before, I'm completely fine knowing that people play with items. I am not trying to force my way of playing on people who play casually. You play with items and have more fun? Good for you! I'm glad that you are enjoying the game too. I play competitively, where items have no place. I have fun without items, and we both have fun.
if you think the game was meant to be played no-items why does it come with the settings on medium with everything on?
Again, you really must have not read my posts at all. I never said there was one single way to play the game. In fact, I said the opposite. Right at the beginning of my first post. And in big letters in the second one. And a few more times throughout my posts. I've been trying to make that clear enough, but apparently I'm failing.

if you think that the games is super unbalance with items, what you are saying that ssb is unbalanced completely. items help those characters round themselve out.
What?
if your truely want be good at the game, you need to know how to fight without a weapon because the items are random, but that is a part of the game.
Items are part of the game, so is turning them off.
to say one variant of the games original state is idiotic. why not just say Giant Melee is the true way of playing? or One Button Melee? why not One Button Melee? you know, because those other buttons just throw off the balance of the game.
Again, I'm not saying my way is the only way to play the game.

---------

Ugh...I think I'm going to stop quoting every little thing to respond now. This takes too long. Onto Akaisen's post: Exactly. Maybe this guy is better at wording it then I am, but this guy is addressing the huge misconception here.

Wormguy's post starts out more or less saying that whether items or on or off, the good people generally win and the bad people generally lose. This is true, but remember we're talking competitive Smash here. Competitive...competing. All the top players in tournaments are very close in skill, and items would totally decide the matches. Not good. Takes the fun out of playing competitively. No matter how much each of them practices, there is still a huge factor of luck. When someone has a problem with messing up certain moves, or doesn't have good combos, they can fix that with practice. But no matter how much you practice, you can't do anything about your opponent literally getting lucky with items. It's...yeah. Refer to Akaisen's post.

Then he says it's no big deal that items spawn rapidly, and a crate exploding on your head is solved as simply as dodging away. Maybe for psychics, lol. You don't have enough time to dodge.

Now the next part you write about, wormguy, is important. There is a misunderstanding about me saying items throw off the balance of the game. I should have made this more clear. You are saying that each item has its own strengths and weaknesses, so you just have to learn about each item and be able to use it effectively. That's reasonable, but that's not why I'm saying it throws off the balance of the game. It throws off the balance of the game because they randomly give huge advantages to players. Think of someone like Samus who is already balanced to have projectiles. She sacrifices for projectiles, while Marth on the other hand sacrifices projectiles for other things. So what if a Marth is fighting a Samus, and a really good projectile appears next to the Marth? Wow, what a jip for the Samus, huh? Marth doesn't sacrifice anything for projectiles while Samus does, and yet here is Marth with a better projectile than Samus, still not sacrificing anything for it. Now you might be saying "Well I know I'm good in my group of players. No matter what items they get I can still beat them because I'm that much better." But you don't realize how close the meta game is in tournaments. Just trust me, it really really makes a difference there.

Now the next thing you say is pretty important so I'm gonna quote it:

Chess is completely, 100% based on strategy. Putting items and stuff into it would be completely ridiculous. But this is Super Smash Bros. we're talking about here. It's not like the items make no sense within the game's context.
So you agree that putting items in Chess is a no-no. Now you say this isn't the same thing with Smash Bros. because it's frigg'n Smash Bros. Trust me, I know where your coming from. I know Melee is really fun to get four people together with all items on with crazy stages and just have fun with all the chaos. But Melee is ALSO able to be played competitively. Underneath all the items and crazy stages that make Melee so fun for certain people, there is a beautiful fighting system. That's why there are neutral stages, and the option to turn items off. It's for people who want to play that way. To play like competitive Chess players play Chess, or the way professional Street Fighter players play Street Fighter. Street Fighter is a great comparison because it is also a fighting game, and you can probably agree that items would be ridiculous to add to Street Fighter for the competitive players, just like it would be with Chess.

Hmm...I might get to some of the other posts later. I hope we have reached an agreement though, wormguy. I respect that you like to play with items, and I would never want to force you to change the way you play.

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You're all retarded.

The items and levels are what make Smash Bros such a fun game. 'Playing competitively' is essentially saying remove all the fun shite so that little kiddies wont bitch that they got owned by a Star Rod or an Arwing.

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

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You're all retarded.

The items and levels are what make Smash Bros such a fun game. 'Playing competitively' is essentially saying remove all the fun shite so that little kiddies wont bitch that they got owned by a Star Rod or an Arwing.

trolls lol

It's too bad you wont back that up though. I'd like to see you go to a tournament and own these little kiddies with the star rod. I'm sure any one of them would gladly money match you with items on for over $100.

lololol now here's the part where you make an excuse about why you won't do it. awww, the poor baby is scared to money match a little kiddie.

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I find it amazing how seriously you people take this game.

*throws the Home Run Bat at Vig's face while rushing in to do a Running A followed by a Forward Smash*

That's right. I went there.

No but seriously, we do like us some Smash Brothers. Let's evaluate each other. Which I don't know when it should be...but yes! Let's!

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The lack of Brawl info is driving the SSB community to the point of insanity. Arguing about items and stages is the only thing that saves us.
GIVE ME MY PIT

Seriously, I could go for some news, or a new character. Actually, something that's had an interesting absence: New items. All we know about is a puppy.

Good job, Nintendo, a puppy.

And, hey, how's that supposed to make the game more fair for one character?

Speaking of which, an interesting question regarding the "super smash" attacks, or whatever they're being called. Think they'll be shut off for tournament play?

Oh noes, no fair! My characters slower, so I couldn't reach it before you!

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isn't poker completely random? how could something completely based on randomness be considered fair? hmmmm. oh WAIT!

lets see, because all the people have the same chances of getting hit with certain cards. all depening where they're sitting and depending on how many cards the previous person took.

so randomness can still be present to see who is the "best" player. as long as the randomness is truely random. like a toss of the dice, everyone has he same odds. (which ssb is) and not biased towards a character or player. those items would appear where they do completely seperate to whats happening in the game. then randomness doesn't need to be removed for it to be fair or judge of whose the best at the game who was made with this randomness as its base.

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isn't poker completely random? how could something completely based on randomness be considered fair? hmmmm. oh WAIT!

lets see, because all the people have the same chances of getting hit with certain cards. all depening where they're sitting and depending on how many cards the previous person took.

so randomness can still be present to see who is the "best" player. as long as the randomness is truely random. like a toss of the dice, everyone has he same odds. (which ssb is) and not biased towards a character or player. those items would appear where they do completely seperate to whats happening in the game. then randomness doesn't need to be removed for it to be fair or judge of whose the best at the game who was made with this randomness as its base.

You can only get so good at poker. Luck still plays a huge part, which sucks. Fighting games are not like Poker. Neither is Chess. Why can't randomness be present in Street Fighter and Chess to determine who is the best, but it can be in Smash? This is getting old, just face it - items aren't good for tournaments/competitive play. Doesn't mean you and your friends can't use them. Doesn't mean items aren't great for having a blast with your friends at a party.

Oh, and to the guy who's trying to start something about supers in Brawl for tournaments or whatever. Nobody knows exactly how those things work yet. If it's just an item, it will most likely be turned off with the other ones. Haha Kirby's super is awesome.

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It's the game industry . They don't do calendars.

And will you people PLEASE stop arguing about how smash is supposed to be played. It's a moot point because none of us really know what the programmers had in mind when they put all of these options in. (My best guess is they wanted the game to be very open-ended.)

If you don't play the game the way the competitive community does, then great, really, I'm just glad people are still playing the game; Items or no items, it's still fun, but if you want to argue whether or not the no items/stage specific/best 3 of 5 game type is a good judge of skill, then argue your point on Smashboards.com. That site is full of LOTS of other people who play the game and have their own opinions on this stuff. Posting about it here really isn't going to acomplish much.

All this meaningless discussion has completely drifted from what I was posting in (and re-bumping) this for in the first place; Smash is at EVO. And that's a good thing IMO.

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