HoboKa

Not cool bro panel.

108 posts in this topic

So key things we'd like to have addressed

  • Make the panel faster.  (Heck maybe I'll try my hand at judge :D)
  • Scrutinize "Yes" votes a bit more thoroughly.   AKA: Make judge queue progress panel more visible and transparent (Jorito added)
  • There are indeed some valid criticisms toward OCR that don't necessarily stem from whiny-bitch, bitter rejects.  mew hew
  • Encourage people to have nice write-ups about their intentions and choices for their track and have the judges read and consider said write-ups; instead of ignoring them and casting them as garnish (not saying you guys DO that, but just as a caveat).
  • Re-evaluate the bar and see if some areas can be slackened ever so slightly.  Baby steps :D 
  • Reconsider putting links to the panel decision-page-thing in the event of a NO.

Anything else I missed?

 

 

 

 

 

(my ill-advised rant a few days back)

(did some edits to sound less cave-man crazy) 

I risk whatever small reputation I have here, but I've got an admittedly emotionally driven protest to make.   The language is crass and I apologize ahead of time for that, but I'm legit upset here.  I still want to take part at OCR's community, and I'm very much aware of what this could cost me, but I feel this needs to be addressed. 

Y'know what, I barely detected any issues here.  I don't have the *best* recording equipment but I think that "Eerie Forests" deserves a more lenient second pass.  This is brilliant work!!.  I decided to edit out the wording that resided in this very spot, because it was frankly, stupid.  Sorry for over9000 edits, I'm not in a good state, but I know that my heart is in the right place.  Please read thoroughly. 

"Eerie Forests" is a brilliant track!!  Way to hive-mind it and say that it's "Too repetitive", as if that were some real deal-breaker.  That only applies when the stuff that's being repeated sucks.  But this doesn't suck.  I'm sorry OCR, but I resent your decision to NO this.  This turdy decision comes off as way too cliquey and hive-mind-ish for me.  I've let a lot of bullshit pass, but I gotta stand my ground here.  Anyone else care to join the discussion?

EDIT2 + stuff (fuck I hate it when I can't articulate my words properly, it's the curse of ADHD and anxiety....)

The judging system, in general, I think is just a little counter productive (not having a lot of new faces hurts), and throwing newbies into the NO-woodchipper is just plain evil man.  And entirely defeats the purpose of being an open community - or at least a community what has one door shut the entire time on what would otherwise be a double-fucking-door-of-inclusiveness.  God, I sound like a fucking SJW here, but have some sense, all ye hard-liners of OCR.  Loosen the requirements a little, be more friendly to the new people.  It won't hurt the website!  Like, I'm not saying go ahead and say YES to (most) of my shit, that stuff's rushed and brick-wall-sounding half the time, but c'moooon.  Slacken the rules a bit.  God!!  Okay, RANTING done.  I love y'all.  Peace out.  

 

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PS, I love you Gario (no homo), but maybe some rules are meant to be broken, no?

 

did some major edits, if you guys came in earlier.  I tried to be more coherent.  Sorry about triple posting, but please, just bear with me. 

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Hmm, I don't hear anything really bad in this. SoundCloud's quality limits it a bit and garbles the high end, but in a proper WAV format this should sounds alright.

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Despite the mad man rave you do here, I do have to admit that said remix ain't bad. Wasn't feeling the ending, but that would be the biggest remark I'd have. Whether or not it's deemed postable is ultimately up to the judges, because that's how this community works, take it or leave it.

While I do agree that this whole eval process (and the time it takes) can be daunting for newcomers, it also guarantees a good base level, and -if you're patient enough to wait for it- the feedback is usually (meant) constructive and you can use it to learn and grow as a musician. At least, that's how I always approached it. Sure, I don't always agree with the evals I get (especially if it ain't positive :P), but in stead of getting butthurt I just keep in mind that these are just opinions of people that are good at critical listening and that they mean well. 

Using this thread for a _constructive_ discussion on judge/eval improvements would be interesting tho. My pet peeve is that eval takes a looong time and happens somewhat in a black box (I'm looking at you, 'Currently in eval' thread), both things that are tough sells in this age of instant gratification.

$0.02. 

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21 minutes ago, Jorito said:

Despite the mad man rave you do here, I do have to admit that said remix ain't bad. Wasn't feeling the ending, but that would be the biggest remark I'd have. Whether or not it's deemed postable is ultimately up to the judges, because that's how this community works, take it or leave it.

While I do agree that this whole eval process (and the time it takes) can be daunting for newcomers, it also guarantees a good base level, and -if you're patient enough to wait for it- the feedback is usually (meant) constructive and you can use it to learn and grow as a musician. At least, that's how I always approached it. Sure, I don't always agree with the evals I get (especially if it ain't positive :P), but in stead of getting butthurt I just keep in mind that these are just opinions of people that are good at critical listening and that they mean well. 

Using this thread for a _constructive_ discussion on judge/eval improvements would be interesting tho. My pet peeve is that eval takes a looong time and happens somewhat in a black box (I'm looking at you, 'Currently in eval' thread), both things that are tough sells in this age of instant gratification.

$0.02. 

Yeah, I dropped that ball.  Someone had approached me to bring forth this topic to the mods/top brass of OCR in a much more intelligent manner.  But I let my anxiety get to me and I stopped talking to him about it.  Look where that got me now.  I let my complexes control me; so here I am. 

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Sounds to me like their rejection was justified by their usual standards.

4 hours ago, Usa said:

Hmm, I don't hear anything really bad in this. SoundCloud's quality limits it a bit and garbles the high end, but in a proper WAV format this should sounds alright.

It's not about whether or not it "sounds bad"; it's about whether or not it sounds the way the judges want it to and in varying degrees of accordance to the site's ideals. It's argued that this is about quality assurance — which I'm sure it is, to a large extent — but personal bias absolutely plays a part because it does in literally anything that is put before a panel of judges. Nobody should take approval or rejection from OCR seriously, IMO.

That being said, I don't see why people bother to submit at all when it takes over a year to get evaluated and by that time, the user has either moved on and improved or given up; kind of defeats the purpose of providing useful feedback to n00bz so they can get approved. You may as well just post it on soundcloud or YouTube yourself. 

"But not as many people will hear it!" — maybe, but I don't see why anyone cares about being a celebrity VGM-remixer; if there even is such a thing.

Lastly, to give an example of where I think the problems lie:

A few months ago, a remix I did with Timaeus for Metroid's anniversary got approved. It had been so long that I forgot we even did the mix. Long story short: Tim was in a bit of a bind since he was off to grad school and at the time, he was the only one of us with a proper string library (I've since acquired CS2). Admittedly, the strings didn't sound great and all of the judges pointed it out.

For most people, those dodgy strings would've been a no-go and got them a "Resub". I mean, you'd think that two guys who have two previously approved collabs with the one member having many, many mixes on the site that such a mistake should be inexcusable, right?

That's my only criticism — aside from the wait time, but people have lives — of the how the panel works: It's long been my observation that "established" remixers are often shown more leniency in fuck ups than noobs are when it should be the other way around. 

But then, some of you may remember the Big Bad Koopa Dubstep controversy of '11.

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1 hour ago, Jorito said:

Using this thread for a _constructive_ discussion on judge/eval improvements would be interesting tho. My pet peeve is that eval takes a looong time and happens somewhat in a black box (I'm looking at you, 'Currently in eval' thread), both things that are tough sells in this age of instant gratification.

First, let's not confuse the terms evaluation and judging. Judging requires at least three people voting, and takes a lot longer, because those works are final when released. Eval usually takes one overworked and underappreciated person, concerns works in progress (that are considered finished for the time being, when eval is used correctly), and is at most indicative of how the judges might vote, never a guarantee.

Second, by all means, discuss judging, discuss eval. Identify problems, suggest solutions. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one concerned about that stuff. Can't speak for the judges, but when it comes to eval, I think I'm allowed to say we've started a conversation about improving it.

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Heh, in my mind eval and judging (in this context) are pretty similar; you get feedback from a critical listener that shares their opinion on the piece whether or not it's OCR-postable quality. Anyway, I get your point and distinction.

I have no gripes with eval, apart from not using it myself often enough and moreso for not giving enough feedback in the workshop myself. And fair is fair, you guys did start a convo about it.

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2 hours ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:

Sounds to me like their rejection was justified by their usual standards.

It's not about whether or not it "sounds bad"; it's about whether or not it sounds the way the judges want it to and in varying degrees of accordance to the site's ideals. It's argued that this is about quality assurance — which I'm sure it is, to a large extent — but personal bias absolutely plays a part because it does in literally anything that is put before a panel of judges. Nobody should take approval or rejection from OCR seriously, IMO.

That being said, I don't see why people bother to submit at all when it takes over a year to get evaluated and by that time, the user has either moved on and improved or given up; kind of defeats the purpose of providing useful feedback to n00bz so they can get approved. You may as well just post it on soundcloud or YouTube yourself. 

"But not as many people will hear it!" — maybe, but I don't see why anyone cares about being a celebrity VGM-remixer; if there even is such a thing.

Lastly, to give an example of where I think the problems lie:

A few months ago, a remix I did with Timaeus for Metroid's anniversary got approved. It had been so long that I forgot we even did the mix. Long story short: Tim was in a bit of a bind since he was off to grad school and at the time, he was the only one of us with a proper string library (I've since acquired CS2). Admittedly, the strings didn't sound great and all of the judges pointed it out.

For most people, those dodgy strings would've been a no-go and got them a "Resub". I mean, you'd think that two guys who have two previously approved collabs with the one member having many, many mixes on the site that such a mistake should be inexcusable, right?

That's my only criticism — aside from the wait time, but people have lives — of the how the panel works: It's long been my observation that "established" remixers are often shown more leniency in fuck ups than noobs are when it should be the other way around. 

But then, some of you may remember the Big Bad Koopa Dubstep controversy of '11.

Taking a 2nd gander at this post...

Erm, what's the Dubstep controversy of '11?  Care to fill me in?

And yes, it kinda should be the other way around regarding leniency and fuck ups with sound design and well-established versus the newbs.  Good luck quantifying these claims though.  Who has the energy and time to pour through dozens (or more) remixes (and remixer accounts) to find where judges coulda done better or where we could shore up the issues??  Why do I even care this much!!??  Oh right, cuz I don't have a life.  Good times! 

That's rough, sorry to hear about your tribulations regarding Metroid Anniversary.  I guess in the end the panel is only human, but damn, if OCR is seriously struggling to hold on to people, why not open the flood gates a bit and revamp the judging process some more??  Can we get a DJP post? 

BUMP...cleaned up stuff.  Some big edits. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, HoboKa said:

Taking a 2nd gander at this post...

Erm, what's the Dubstep controversy of '11?  Care to fill me in?

And yes, it kinda should be the other way around regarding leniency and fuck ups with sound design and well-established versus the newbs.  Good luck quantifying these claims those.  Who has the energy and time to pour through dozens or more remixes to support this?  (On a side note: I knew a guy who WAS willing to go through that effort....but nooooooooo I let my anxiety take hold - and it doesn't help that my character alone is on shaky ground, because of my noted instability O_o)

 

Basically, their is a remix called "big bad koopa dubstep" that was a direct post by DJP back in 2011. There was a big argument about whether or not it was really up to OCR standards.

Even on YouTube, it's the most negatively-rated remix I'm aware of coming from this community.

Keep in mind I don't really have any dog in this hunt, but:

If I were to make any suggestion, it would be that j00jment of remixes should be more about whether or not the track is close enough to modern production standards (using quality sounds) and composition/arrangement standards to be acceptable to listeners and not whether not it fits the "OCR philosophy" so to speak. 

I know this will sound like it has a douchey tone to it, but trust me; it's just because of the cold lack of emotion text has and my rather crass way of wording things =P

For example, From Gario:

Quote

The flute is still a touch busy for my tastes

0:18 - 1:36 & 1:36 - 1:54 sound almost like a direct repeat, with a lot of it being straight copy pasta, there. There are some small variations to separate the two (some doublings at a few points, one or two extra textures in the background), but for the most part the track repeats itself nearly verbatum, which is a fairly large no-no.

Nobody cares about what the judge's "tastes" are; they should not be a factor as much as possible and the number of people who will care about 22 seconds being copy-pasted in electronic music will be close to zero when it's out there in the world.

From Mindwanderer:

Quote

Gario's absolutely right about the repetition being a dealbreaker; 78 seconds being repeated out of 226 is over a third, far too much.

Here is a top-20 charting, funky electronic track used in countless video games, films, trailers, etc. which has way more than a third of it being copy-pasta repetition.

What's good for the masses isn't good enough for OCR, though? Please.

Quote

I'm not a fan of that ending, either.  There's no lead-up to it, it just ends.

There is clearly a riser that leads up to the end and there are no shortage of similar tunes that end exactly like this or otherwise with an abrupt ending and it hasn't harmed platinum sales.

Quote

So yeah, while this would definitely be a much stronger submission with the repetition issue dealt with, I don't think that's the only issue that needs to be addressed.  The structure is pretty good and there are some solid ideas, but this would really benefit from some more work in the EQ department.

The track doesn't need EQ; it needs superior part-writing to get rid of the clutter, could probably benefit from some more "modern" sounds, harder-hitting drums and more low end.

Where I'm going with this?

None of this track's shortcomings seem like dealbreakers and I don't think it's any skin off OCR's ass if it were just approved. Instead, it's rejected and the mixer will have to go back and try to remold it the way you want it and wait probably a year or more before they find out if they must wait another year to see it on your YouTube channel. You may as well have just approved it: I'm certain there would be no shortage of people who enjoy it, it would encourage the mixer to continue mixing for the site, and whatever shortcomings it has aren't going to sully OCR's standards and reputation.

You've approved a whole lot worse.

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1 hour ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:

Basically, their is a remix called "big bad koopa dubstep" that was a direct post by DJP back in 2011. There was a big argument about whether or not it was really up to OCR standards.

Even on YouTube, it's the most negatively-rated remix I'm aware of coming from this community.

Keep in mind I don't really have any dog in this hunt, but:

If I were to make any suggestion, it would be that j00jment of remixes should be more about whether or not the track is close enough to modern production standards (using quality sounds) and composition/arrangement standards to be acceptable to listeners and not whether not it fits the "OCR philosophy" so to speak. 

I know this will sound like it has a douchey tone to it, but trust me; it's just because of the cold lack of emotion text has and my rather crass way of wording things =P

For example, From Gario:

Nobody cares about what the judge's "tastes" are; they should not be a factor as much as possible and the number of people who will care about 22 seconds being copy-pasted in electronic music will be close to zero when it's out there in the world.

From Mindwanderer:

Here is a top-20 charting, funky electronic track used in countless video games, films, trailers, etc. which has way more than a third of it being copy-pasta repetition.

What's good for the masses isn't good enough for OCR, though? Please.

There is clearly a riser that leads up to the end and there are no shortage of similar tunes that end exactly like this or otherwise with an abrupt ending and it hasn't harmed platinum sales.

The track doesn't need EQ; it needs superior part-writing to get rid of the clutter, could probably benefit from some more "modern" sounds, harder-hitting drums and more low end.

Where I'm going with this?

None of this track's shortcomings seem like dealbreakers and I don't think it's any skin off OCR's ass if it were just approved. Instead, it's rejected and the mixer will have to go back and try to remold it the way you want it and wait probably a year or more before they find out if they must wait another year to see it on your YouTube channel. You may as well have just approved it: I'm certain there would be no shortage of people who enjoy it, it would encourage the mixer to continue mixing for the site, and whatever shortcomings it has aren't going to sully OCR's standards and reputation.

You've approved a whole lot worse.

I...see.  Not to be the one to critique the owner of the house.  But.  Maybe some feedback before making it an official OCR track woulda helped.  This sounds like my quality of synthwork.  Shame on thee o' DjPpppeeeeeee (still love you, no homo - you and I should discord someday or something).  Gotta admit this remix is still catchy AF, just needs some tweaking.

Me?  I'm not as picky.  If it sounds like it's PS1 era, go right for it - so long as it's in tune, on tempo and isn't too thin sounding or is an utter midi rip.  Pitch bending I think would help in that regard to make it more human-like.  Or you could mask and E/Q out the more grating parts of the sound.  Like, THIS still holds up beautifully in my humble opinion - there is a surprising depth here. 

And so what if THIS is stiff... There manages to be a human quality somehow.  Maybe it's the 'warble' of the key sample?

I could draw out further examples; kinda low on juice tho.  But to hell with complete and perfect production says I.  A lot of albums bank off of 'obsolete' sounds like chiptunes these days.  Now a good example of what to put under heavy scrutiny is THIS... hear the poor mix of the E/Q in the lower ends - the lack of any real instrument articulation.  This is bad.  I cannot endorse this vomit.  Though the atmosphere is kinda cool.

3rd point I'm trying to get across is that not everyone has access to E/W, Atmosphere and other uber high end synths (without being a butt pirate, you dirty, dirty pirate you ;) ) - and don't tell me you can get grade A articulation out of Garritan's, Native Instruments and Philharmonic - that shit is hard AF to work with esp. without a midi keyboard (yeah...I had to return mine because it was too big for my current set up).   There ARE exceptions and to you people, I doff my hat to you - but c'moooon throw us a friggin' bone here.  If we got the E/Q down pat and got a reasonable synthwork/instrumentation that is at least 50% human-ish, then it's all good in da hood.  Let's be a bit more lenient here, it's not hard to ask.  Pleeease DjP - show us some love q.q (I'll be your waifu :P)  Plus, RIP Medium-Fi saxophone and trumpet samples...gotta give them some TLC too T_T

4th semi-coherent point: Oh and as for meandering, zyk0 normalized that term at OCR remember??  He has imparted much wisdom unto me and said that being a meanderer is a boon, not a curse.  So long as it sounds cool - who cares if it throws ya off guard?? 

:D:D;) (where's the penis emoji?)

 

editover5000 - Misnomer: PS1 era sound is by no means the only metric to go to if the site is up for lowering the bar a tad for sound quality, it is just a starting point, in my mind's eye.  Chiptunes have already made it in, so there ought to be some room for adaptability eh?

 

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I think the standards of what a track needs to bring in order to be posted on the homepage has also grown over the years. If you look back at earlier mixes, quite a few of them wouldn't be posted these days. So the quality standards have evolved as the musicians making the music (and the easy access and sheer quality of today's music software and knowledge) have grown. Which I think is a good thing.

It's probably also a really tricky balance to define where that low threshold of quality should be. Put it too high, and you end up discouraging newer remixers (even though some might meet it as a game to match and try and beat; I know I did!). Put it too low, and you end up discouraging those musicians who are further along on their musical journey and want to be in a community with people with similar level.

Uniting those 2 contradicting positions might actually be impossible. And maybe you shouldn't. Having the jury and some barrier on getting posted on the homepage does alleviate it to something of a kind of Champions League, if you will, and also makes it a kind of special event. I know I always look forward to getting mixposted.  

Anyway, it might not be a bad idea to expand this Champions League with a Premier League and maybe even a First Division kind of thing, with a lower threshold. You could for example consider remixes that are being evaluated in the Workshop and getting a pass from the mods there to be in a separate list of their own (the Premier League) and maybe a First Division kind of thing for the tracks that get a NO, resub mark from the panel. Not a new idea, because this is actually pretty similar to the next goal on OCR's Patreon page.

And yes, judges just being human will mean that sometimes their subjective opinions will be a pain, and yes, they will nitpick about stuff you might feel different about. But copy/paste is something I would tend to agree on with them; this is a remixing community, not a copy/paste community. Show your creative chops, that's the whole point. That creativity extends to getting whatever stuff you have to sound good, without requiring you to have all the fancy sample libs and synths. That kind of production work is not everybody's cup of tea (I cheat by using these fancy sample libs and synths if I feel like it), but don't let "I don't have fancy thing X" be an excuse for being lazy at it ;)

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4 hours ago, DarkeSword said:

@HoboKa Stop double posting. You don't need to bump a thread whenever you edit your post.

Well consider me informed. =p

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20 hours ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:

That's my only criticism — aside from the wait time, but people have lives — of the how the panel works: It's long been my observation that "established" remixers are often shown more leniency in fuck ups than noobs are when it should be the other way around. 

FWIW, I rarely check remixer names before judging.  If I do, it's after I've written my evaluation or because it was very hard to miss in the post when I have to click the link.  I don't really care about who you are, and in fact I don't think the other judges do either.  Joel is my best buddy and if he has to say NO to one of my tracks, he does, as he should, and as he has.  I don't really care if it's djp himself sending a track in.  I'd actually say, when the remixer's name and past is considered, the panel is harder on established remixers because we expect them to be at a certain level.

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1 hour ago, Sir_NutS said:

FWIW, I rarely check remixer names before judging.  If I do, it's after I've written my evaluation or because it was very hard to miss in the post when I have to click the link.  I don't really care about who you are, and in fact I don't think the other judges do either.  Joel is my best buddy and if he has to say NO to one of my tracks, he does, as he should, and as he has.  I don't really care if it's djp himself sending a track in.  I'd actually say, when the remixer's name and past is considered, the panel is harder on established remixers because we expect them to be at a certain level.

Quoted for agreement. :-) 

On a trip and otherwise too busy to reply to this in depth, but the main thing I want to convey to Alex is to breathe and relax and ornate assume that any time someone complains about OCR or how the panel is run that you're somehow shunned, blacklisted, or ready to be banned. We're not touchy like that. Don't assume bad faith and overthink things to the point where you think we have it out for you. :-P

On the Facebook thread for this, zyko and The Coop pointed out how the track didn't have much going on dynamically. I haven't heard it, but that's a pretty reasonable and common reason stuff hasn't passed before.

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Also, just because we NO a track doesn't mean we think it's bad.  We've sent back submissions that were great covers, or that would have been great as a part of a score for a game or movie, or that are standout pieces of music all around but don't tie in to the VGM enough or clearly enough.  A NO is not necessarily a critique of the general quality of the submission and is never a statement about the artist in general.  All it means is that it's not specifically what we look for as part of our curated and themed collection of remixes.

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Oh boy, this might be my first experience with being a jdgfgt on the forums. Almost makes me feel like I'm a legit judge now. I'm so happy this day has come.

;)

Considering the circumstances, I would like a moment to address a few topics that came up on here. Wasn't able to do much yesterday other than snipe one or two points on the FB thread due to work, so consider this a more overarching response. I don't hand these walls of text out too often anymore, so enjoy!

First and foremost, OCR is most certainly not the end all, be all of video game remixes; the kind of music posted on here is clearly stated on DjP's mission statement. There is great music that can't be posted on OCR due to his personal vision for the site, so if someone says that something amazing didn't get posted on OCR I will absolutely believe you. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, either; it's his site, and great things certainly has come from it.

I feel sometimes people forget this point on both sides of the aisle; a few more passionate members sometimes say something isn't good if it doesn't pass OCR's muster while others state OCR judges hate good music when a song doesn't pass. Neither of these things are true, and on my word I can say I've known the current staff long enough to say they understand that, as well. At the risk of sounding like I'm strawmanning, if anyone makes these bad faith assumptions about the staff they should reconsider their opinion.

Okay, just wanted to get that out there on full display.

Second, I've seen a few posts on here upset at the time it takes to judge a track. While last month was admittedly slow likely due to more than one album being evaluated and posted on here (Sinphony and Candy Corn II, baby - we actually do have to judge every track on albums, which takes time), overall I'm a bit hurt that no one really acknowledges the process has sped up over the last year, with the topic of this thread being a great example. Y'all know that the time between submission (as in, he sent it to the inbox) and judgement was literally eight days at most, right? Like, he posted in the thread that he was submitting it soon on May 26th, and the judgment was completed on June 3rd, right?

I'm calling bologna on this complaint; I've personally worked my ass off to get the inbox and panel to the point that the wait for judgment is on average three months at the moment (again, slow down happened last month due to an influx of albums - it used to be closer to two months from submission to judgment on average, save for tough tracks on the panel), so I take particular offense to this blindness on the improved judgment speed, here. There's likely no better time to put your music on OCR to get more timely feedback, so please stop saying it takes over a year to get evaluated on average on here. Everything that was submitted in 2016 or earlier has been judged (with a single exception, for those astute enough to check). We're in a pretty good spot as far as inbox and judgment speed goes; it'd be nice for people to start recognizing that.

Thirdly, specifically on this submission... I can see why some may be upset at my judgment, but there's another half to the story that'd be missed if you didn't know I was personally involved in the WIP thread helping him out. Being that I act as both a judge and a somewhat active workshop evaluator (less so nowadays, much to Rozo's chagrin, I bet) I sometimes make reference to what I've said in my evaluation in my judgments. Whether or not that's bad practice is debatable (the confusion in this thread being a decent case against this), but in my view the artist is the most important one to understand the feedback; generally no one else has easy access to the music so no one else needs to understand it.

I've seen a complaint or two on this discussion saying that I shouldn't consider the flute at all in my judgment, and you're absolutely correct - I shouldn't. If you feel judges should never consider personal taste in music when judging something then be vindicated in the fact that you're correct! The catch is that I made absolutely clear in my WIP evaluation that this was personal taste and would in no way impact the judgment; Brynolf actually requested comments specifically on the flute, so I gave him my opinion on it. In the judgment I acknowledge that his track overall improved from when I eval'd it, even while teasing that he didn't make any changes to the flute. My vote had nothing to do with the flute in his track, and everything to do with the copy/paste of about a third of his track (which I missed when I eval'd it - that was a mistake on my part, and I still feel bad about that).

You can disagree that the copy/paste is a problem, but I stick by this decision. Anyone can feel free to argue this point either via PM, FB or Discord with me if they'd like since I don't want to crowd this thread too much on my reasoning (in fact I'd love to do that; there's some interesting reasoning behind why this is an issue). That's not to say I dislike that song at all - far from it. I personally really enjoyed this track in every other aspect, and still hope that he resubmits it with some minor changes made to address the issue as it would be a wonderful addition to OCR's front page. I can't drop the QC aspect of my judgments just because I like a track, though; it's one of the larger downsides of the job, to be honest.

Finally, on the consistency in judgment brought up in here... yeah, it can be a little inconsistent from time to time. That's because of two aspects: we're humans on the panel, and there's nine of us on there with varying experiences and opinions. On the first point, humans ain't perfect, and with anything that involves judgment of anything our imperfections will play into it. This applies to literally everything, not just OCR; for example, apparently you never want to be judged in court prior to lunch, because when everyone is hungry they're more likely to rush the verdict against the accused. To mitigate this aspect, there are many of us on there to cover one another's mistakes; more people means there's more chance that judges will catch each other's mistakes. Of course, this also means that different people will vote on different tracks, which unfortunately means there will be some variation in judgments due to different people voting on different tracks; that can't be helped.

Those are my $0.50 on the topic at hand; hopefully it's a somewhat informative wall o' text. No hate to Hoboka for the thread or anyone else involved, either - we coo'.

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Epic wall of text is epic. And clarifying.

I'll grant you guys that the eval process is quicker these days (as long as you keep in mind that eval might be quick but it might take a good amount of time to get it actually posted!) but for me as a poor ol' remixer that's a bit hard to see. Sure, tracks that get NO'ed end up quite quickly in the judge decision forum, but for tracks that are either YES'ed, under judgement or pending in the queue there's not a lot of visibility unless somebody takes up the (manual) chore of updating the 'Currently in the Judging Process' topic. Personally I think it'd be awesome to have this automated and more visible (and faster), but I'm not sure how feasible -or desirable- that is.

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3 minutes ago, Jorito said:

Sure, tracks that get NO'ed end up quite quickly in the judge decision forum, but for tracks that are either YES'ed, under judgement or pending in the queue there's not a lot of visibility unless somebody takes up the (manual) chore of updating the 'Currently in the Judging Process' topic. Personally I think it'd be awesome to have this automated and more visible (and faster), but I'm not sure how feasible -or desirable- that is.

A fair point on that. For a while (beginning of this year, I think) it was being updated pretty regularly, but that's definitely slowed dow...

Holy shit, last updated in JUNE?! Jesus.

Okay, we should fix that like... right now. Sir_nutS was really on it for a while, but it seems to have stopped recently. I'm sure we'll update it soon. If not, I'll update it if necessary.

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45 minutes ago, Gario said:

A fair point on that. For a while (beginning of this year, I think) it was being updated pretty regularly, but that's definitely slowed dow...

Holy shit, last updated in JUNE?! Jesus.

Okay, we should fix that like... right now. Sir_nutS was really on it for a while, but it seems to have stopped recently. I'm sure we'll update it soon. If not, I'll update it if necessary.

I was updating it at least 2-3 times a week for the past year or more.  But seems like people don't notice when things are working well -_- 

I have a lot of responsibilities lately so I've slowed down with judging and updating that thread, I thought that since songs are judged quickly now, it wouldn't be an issue if that thread doesn't get updated much, so my bad.
 

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Here's my 2 cents on this.

I DO feel the panel has been faster lately, even if it's not obvious. The Decisions thread has indeed not been updated nearly as often as of late, but I know that the action is still happening behind the scenes because I remember how fast some of my own mixes have been moving through the queue (again, as everyone here ought to keep straight, independent of who I am, and 99% dependent on who's judging and what they choose to judge next [because y'all have lives and limited time]).

I don't know if that's particularly satisfying as there is still an uncertainty as to the time between judged mixes and posted mixes, but I've honestly stopped staring at the Decisions thread a long time ago, and just let the decisions be made when they can be made. I suppose that's in part because I'm more picky than the Judges are (though I've been much less picky lately), and I've just stopped thinking, "will this make it?", and started thinking "what minor subjective differences am I going to see that ultimately don't affect the decision?". :)

With time and practice, @HoboKa, you can become more confident in your abilities to churn out something that you're happy with, that you also know the Judges would pass. Just keep at it, and be self-aware, and in particular, honest with yourself.

Again, just as @Gario and @AngelCityOutlaw have said or implied, the reasons the Judges have come up with had evolved over the years and have had proper rationale in them (though the standards are actually fairly low compared to so-called "modern production standards", as I think I've mentioned a few times before), and they do mean well. Whether or not that is well-conveyed is another story (as it may seem "black-box" to an ordinary bystander), but one can always make a topic (like this!) asking/ranting about it to get more of that rationale clarified. Any good Judge shouldn't feel openly offended anyways, right? (I'm being a bit cheeky.)

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Here's where I see a disconnect betwixt OCR eval. process vs videogame music by and large.  A lot of videogame music is designed to be repetetive and very loopable - which is good for the medium it's in.  As far as "general music" goes, that is probably a no-go, since everyone likes a nice and tidy "beginning, middle and end".  So I guess I got caught up in the emotion, when I noticed brynwol1f (forgive me if I misspelled that).  Still, I don't see how that's a bad thing, if the stuff being repeated is incredibly diverse in texture and has a cool sound.  Plus I mean this track in particular has a kick ass Tiberium Sun vibe - who doesn't like that!? 

Here's some random points that are kind of ADHD-ish, and have probably bottled up too long.

1) Yes the panel is faster.  And to be honest, I think they've also been more caring, less biased and more knowledgeable on a wider spectrum of styles - I see a lot more atmospheric and eccentric tracks passing which is awesome.  Gario, Palpable (edit) and Sir Nuts, especially, I've found very useful.  Unrelated to the Panel, Rozovian and Willrock have also guided me quite well, including Usa. 

2) A big caveat; I have to call out Liontamer and say he's a little too Simon-ish from American Idol.  I hear he's much more personable face to face as I've yet to do a MAGfest...  in all fairness, I ASCRIBED wayyyy too much in what other people say and as a result my musical style has suffered for it.  Ascribing too much has cost me a lot, come to think of it.  I dropped band in grade 9 because of bullying and I recently lost my job because I let my fragile ego get the best of me, rather than stand my ground and not act like a simp. 

3) I didn't feel that my Sonic CD collab with Damashi (Titillating Tempest) was reviewed fairly, and I SHOULD'VE addressed that to OCR LONG ago.  Thing is, I rather dislike confrontation and I tend to bottle in my stressors until I explode.  I'm like a 0 to an 11, so sorry about that everyone I might've offended.  At least now the pent-up steam has been released. 

So maybe the primary takeaway of this whole shit-show regarding brynolf's "Shadow of the Beast" was more of an inner projection or manifestation of stuff I've been holding away - I feel pretty bad for using him as foil in my mad rant now - and against his will or permission no less.  Kind of underhanded and maybe slightly psychotic, but that's how I'm wired.  It sucks ass.

EDIT

Another thing I have to point out is the incredible amount of support from current and former members of the community on FB when I posted.  Thanks guys!  I was expecting to be turned into minced meat and told to go hide in the loser corner or something. 

 

 

 

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First off, I do want to point out that what @Gario said in here seems to just be a typo. I listened through the track, and I think he just meant 0:18 - 1:36 vs. 1:36 - 2:54. THAT would be a pretty significant repetition and THAT makes a lot of sense to me. And it isn't just the idea of repetition that's the problem---it's the collection of textures, expression, contour, . . . that feels too same-y the second time through. If that wasn't apparent the first time, @HoboKa, hopefully that clears something up.

1 hour ago, HoboKa said:

Here's where I see a disconnect betwixt OCR eval. process vs videogame music by and large.  A lot of videogame music is designed to be repetetive and very loopable - which is good for the medium it's in.  As far as "general music" goes, that is probably a no-go, since everyone likes a nice and tidy "beginning, middle and end".  So I guess I got caught up in the emotion, when I noticed brynwol1f (forgive me if I misspelled that).  Still, I don't see how that's a bad thing, if the stuff being repeated is incredibly diverse in texture and has a cool sound.  Plus I mean this track in particular has a kick ass Tiberium Sun vibe - who doesn't like that!?

Yes, I do see what you mean there. And that boils down to, "what is the point of this particular music?". The purpose of video game music WITHIN a video game is to keep the gameplay exciting, match the mood, what have you, and if it had an ending at an improper moment in the gameplay, that wouldn't feel right. And so, looping is an easy way to make sure that doesn't happen. That's fine, in that context.

With "actual music", i.e. music that is meant to be listened to as complete, standalone tracks, satisfying endings are preferred, and repetition is disfavored. Of course, repetition keeps familiarity with the musical content, but eventually it gets taxing, and the Judges regard repetition in a general manner, trying to predict how long someone would need before they skip to a new song, let's say. And that varies from Judge to Judge---someone who writes trance music might be more numb to repetition than someone who writes jazz. There are inherent assumptions as to how repetitive is too repetitive, and that's really the contention you have here. A non-Judge might not be actively watching out for blatant copy-paste, whereas mods and Judges would (or should) actually keep that in the back of their mind.

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2) A big caveat; I have to call out Liontamer and say he's a little too Simon-ish from American Idol.  I hear he's much more personable face to face as I've yet to do a MAGfest...  in all fairness, I ASCRIBED wayyyy too much in what other people say and as a result my musical style has suffered for it.  Ascribing too much has cost me a lot, come to think of it.  I dropped band in grade 9 because of bullying and I recently lost my job because I let my fragile ego get the best of me, rather than stand my ground and not act like a simp. 

That's a fair remark. But even Simon himself has gotten nicer over the years, in case that wasn't clear from the more recent America's Got Talent appearance he made this year. Along similar lines, Liontamer has also been passing stuff more recently that I might personally not be totally in agreement with, but that I would argue is a good thing (from the perspective of the listener, that is). I've never met him face to face either, but I definitely enjoyed the OCR Podcasts I managed to get onto with him there, at least.

In general, as I keep suggesting to all the aspiring or struggling composers here, you gotta have a thick skin. Just keep in mind that you gotta read through the Judge comments with some scrutiny in the sense that they're made from a human's perspective, and differences in perspective will arise. Fix what you agree with, and see if you come to a better agreement.

It's an iterative process (and here I'm referring to any remixer), and by being self-aware and honest with yourself as I mentioned, you can eventually spot your own mistakes and improve on those without simply submitting as soon as you get the chance (not trying to accuse you here). That will give you a better chance than making small tweaks and subbing again with little community input----that's what mods are for!

Quote

 

3) I didn't feel that my Sonic CD collab with Damashi (Titillating Tempest) was reviewed fairly, and I SHOULD'VE addressed that to OCR LONG ago.  Thing is, I rather dislike confrontation and I tend to bottle in my stressors until I explode.  I'm like a 0 to an 11, so sorry about that everyone I might've offended.  At least now the pent-up steam has been released. 

So maybe the primary takeaway of this whole shit-show regarding brynolf's "Shadow of the Beast" was more of an inner projection or manifestation of stuff I've been holding away - I feel pretty bad for using him as foil in my mad rant now - and against his will or permission no less.  Kind of underhanded and maybe slightly psychotic, but that's how I'm wired.  It sucks ass.

 

Hey, I'm glad you got that out of your system (or some of it anyway). No matter what though, asking more questions, IMO, is better than simply getting frustrated internally and keeping it to yourself. I don't speak for the community, but I think that as a whole, we are generally willing to put up with "rabblerousers", and "shit-shows" as you put it. :)

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1 hour ago, timaeus222 said:

With "actual music", i.e. music that is meant to be listened to as complete, standalone tracks, satisfying endings are preferred, and repetition is disfavored. Of course, repetition keeps familiarity with the musical content, but eventually it gets taxing, and the Judges regard repetition in a general manner, trying to predict how long someone would need before they skip to a new song, let's say. And that varies from Judge to Judge---someone who writes trance music might be more numb to repetition than someone who writes jazz. There are inherent assumptions as to how repetitive is too repetitive, and that's really the contention you have here. A non-Judge might not be actively watching out for blatant copy-paste, whereas mods and Judges would (or should) actually keep that in the back of their mind.

That there I feel brings into question a larger more overriding notion that is merely being glossed over here. You even mention a good example yourself, Trance versus Jazz. I'm a Trance head for the record. So, repetition in Trance is very much a thing, and is really a core tenet of the genre as a whole. However, if you go listen to Trance you'll find that it is actually less repetitive than you might think. The texture of the track is varied and modulated throughout. Someone who listens for chord changes and progressions is likely to be bored as a result of this. I think Trance is actually kind of a bad choice in this comparison and would instead choose Minimal as it is far more repetitious, or you could even throw Ambient in there. Even then those two genres have their own kind of movement to them that should be taken into consideration. To simply ignore this is missing a core principle of the genre at hand, and not looking at things from the appropriate perspective. Just my $0.02. 

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