ReMix Reviews - Lack thereof?

[timaeus222]

The remaining top ten (because you've got to have a reward be far-reaching enough that people won't consider it a lost cause to even try)

 

Paid vacation including room and board to their local city's luxurious sewer system, complete with fold-out table, dollar general table cloth, and enough seating for 2 humans and several rats. That's a joke, but just imagine that in your head.. it's like a Disney movie. 

 

That one movie about soup-making rats? [/sarcasm] (I love that movie)

[Brandon Strader]

Ratatouille, but with less cleanliness. We could also throw in a candle for the table made from... what can only be described as... "composite materials"

[orlouge82]

I know that I've been less active in the past year or two, mostly because of having a second kid (which is way more work than only having one), but also because I've gotten busier with work, too.  I don't know about any diminishing interest in nostalgia, because OCR itself has a lot of nostalgia value for me, having started listening to mixes from the site back in 2001.  If anything, I think that the normal consequences of life have just gradually taken people away from the site over time, and there haven't been as many new users cropping up to replace them.

 

I really do love this site and want it to continue to succeed, so it may be something that I have to actively remind myself to check in on more often.  And I never regret digging through the archives for remixes that I may have missed over the years.

[DarkeSword]

I think one problem, and this might be addressed in V6, I don't know, is that right now if you go to a mixpost, you download the song or listen on YouTube on the mixpost page. Then if you want to leave a review, you have to click on the review link. Then you have to be logged into the forum. What if you're not registered? Well then now you have to register for the forum and create an account. But after that, you have to wait until your forum account is manually activated. At this point, you don't really care about leaving a review anymore.

 

Commenting on remixes on the mixpost page just needs to be easier. There are too many clicks, even if you already have an active forum account. You should be able to just hit play and write a review all on the same page. This is why people comment on YouTube videos. They don't have to jump through hoops to leave their 2 cents.

 

These things might be taken care of with IPS4 and V6; IPS has a commenting system that could be used on mixpost pages (maybe, I don't know, I don't really know IPS's system that well yet). I know we talked about Disqus in the past too, but I also know that it's preferable to keep everything under one software umbrella (in this case, IPS). Regardless, I think the gating that's happening when trying to leave a review needs to be addressed.

[Brandon Strader]

If I may make a side statement. The way we subscribe to threads now is a lot less intuitive and helpful than it used to be. The reason I don't reply to many threads that I have talked in is because I just can't find them. User CP used to be so spot on. I don't want to complain because I very strongly support the upgrading of the forum, I just miss how convenient it used to be. And I wouldn't be surprised if that caused a lot less conversation going on.

[Sir_NutS]

Nowadays I get most comments on youtube, twitter, or personal messages over social media.  So I don't think the audience has reduced or the people who want to comment about your music are gone, they're just using the most common tools available nowadays for doing so.

[DarkeSword]

If I may make a side statement. The way we subscribe to threads now is a lot less intuitive and helpful than it used to be. The reason I don't reply to many threads that I have talked in is because I just can't find them. User CP used to be so spot on. I don't want to complain because I very strongly support the upgrading of the forum, I just miss how convenient it used to be. And I wouldn't be surprised if that caused a lot less conversation going on.

 

Are you using the What's New tab?

 

http://ocremix.org/community/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=viewNewContent&search_app=forums

 

Set your options to "Items I Participated In" or "Just Items I Follow." This is almost exactly what the old User CP used to provide in terms of keeping up with threads. I used the User CP a lot too.

 

The newest version of IPS that we're updating to will feature this heavily; they're going to be called Activity Streams and you'll be able to make and save your own.

[swansdown]

1: Why, if applicable, don't you comment on new mixposts on OCR?

I used to leave feedback as much as Crulex some days... Then I ended up working nearly every day for almost a year and disappeared from here. I'd put my reason in the 'over time you will lose people for no fault of your own' pile.

 

As for the workshop forum, I tried posting for a while in there. I had a back and forth with one mixer over a piece, giving feedback as best I could, but eventually I said I couldn't give them the technical feedback they needed -- they'd need a musician's reply instead because I didn't know how to help more. After that, I felt too embarrassed to post anything else there. I may do again, though, after reading MindWanderer's comment here. (I could point out which parts don't work or merge together well.)

 

 

2: How do you suggest the number of reviews is brought back up again?

A lot of good suggestions so far. As a non-musician, I give mostly 'I liked it! -- especially this bit and that sound!' feedback on pieces I like. But that's not what some musicians want, which is review from peers.

 

That said, I wouldn't use a stick to encourage people who don't review to review. I actually like the review count and badges idea. Of my 350 posts, probably 80% are feedback comments, and I'm proud of that. (To some artists, nothing is more maddening than utter silence, and even if only half my comments perk up someone's day, that's a lot more than if I never posted at all.) It's also encouraging as a reviewer to see a remixer post thank you the week after a mix has been posted.

 

What else can be suggested? Giving people forum titles can be encouraging in that they feel more connected to this place. Like, if someone is in the workshop giving feedback a lot, brainstorm names to give those people even if they're not moderators. (Workshop Helper, Assistant, Tinkerer,... or something less lame. ) On the Shadowrun forums, I remember some of the active people, who often greeted new members, were given the title of "Face" (in game terms, they'd be the social or business face of the party).

 

You need some active people to attract others to post more often, even if the most active people take breaks every so often.

 

 

Also, I keep a VG music thread on another forum, but so far I've been pointing to the youtube page and not ocr's page. I'll start posting the ocr page link with DJP's write-up alongside the youtube video link.

[Garpocalypse]

1: Why, if applicable, don't you comment on new mixposts on OCR?

I used to leave feedback as much as Crulex some days... Then I ended up working nearly every day for almost a year and disappeared from here. I'd put my reason in the 'over time you will lose people for no fault of your own' pile.

 

As for the workshop forum, I tried posting for a while in there. I had a back and forth with one mixer over a piece, giving feedback as best I could, but eventually I said I couldn't give them the technical feedback they needed -- they'd need a musician's reply instead because I didn't know how to help more. After that, I felt too embarrassed to post anything else there. I may do again, though, after reading MindWanderer's comment here. (I could point out which parts don't work or merge together well.)

 

 

...

 

I know as well as anyone what that can feel like.  The relationship between musician and listener is a complex one though and any insight that can be given to that relationship should always be welcomed in my opinion. 

 

I had an epiphany of sorts a short time ago when i was talking with a friend of mine who is also a psychologist.  For the record he has a fairly (ridiculously) high IQ and yet he has always enjoyed listening to aural garbage and can't even relate to anything with more than three chords. During one conversation we ended up talking about music with mass appeal and repetitive chord progressions when he said "Most people can't hear chord changes!"  meawhile i'm thinking how could anyone not realize that something in the framework of a piece is changing? Does it sound completely static to them?  Is that what they are seeking in music they can relate to? It's kind of like listening to that one guy in a crowd trying to clap the same rhythm that everyone else is and he's just not quite pulling it off. And the whole time you're thinking how does anyone not develop a sense of rhythm? Did they not watch enough Sesame Street? This got me thinking about how much you can get away with as a musician or an engineer without the listener even knowing about it.  (turns out it's kind of a lot)

 

To give you an example of a key difference between someone with trained vs untrained ears, from an engineer's perspective, people with untrained ears can't detect a change in volume that is less than 5 db.  Compared to someone with trained ears that can detect a change in volume within 3db or less. This means you can quietly manipulate the listener's attention without disrupting how they are perceiving the piece of music. It's entirely possible that someone with untrained ears could notice something (or more importantly NOT notice something) that someone else would figure was just "good enough."  Such as an entrance for a lead instrument not being attention grabbing enough for the average listener to know it was there.

 

So don't think that because your advice isn't specifically "This is what you need to do in order to not suck" that it isn't valuable in some way.  It's possible the advice you give could clue a musician in on something they had no idea about before.  

[swansdown]

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Edited September 8, 2023 by swansdown

[Mirby]

Obviously we need to bring back December is Reviews Month again and have some incentives. Maybe albums from OC Records?

[timaeus222]

On 11/8/2015 at 2:58 PM, Garpocalypse said:

The relationship between musician and listener is a complex one though and any insight that can be given to that relationship should always be welcomed in my opinion. "Most people can't hear chord changes!"  mea[n]while i'm thinking how could anyone not realize that something in the framework of a piece is changing? Does it sound completely static to them?  Is that what they are seeking in music they can relate to? It's kind of like listening to that one guy in a crowd trying to clap the same rhythm that everyone else is and he's just not quite pulling it off. And the whole time you're thinking how does anyone not develop a sense of rhythm?

I'll see if I can provide any insight here based on what I remember about my 'younger days'.

I do agree with this, actually. I didn't really gain an appreciation for chord changes until two years into my remixing experience (August 2013), and I in fact had had about 9 years of music experience by that time, the latter 4 of which also involved high school choir. Obviously I'd see a lot of chord changes in choir on paper, but apparently I didn't recognize them that well by ear at the time!

By the time I got into high school choir, I already had pretty competent rhythm, at least in terms of reading sheet music and clapping it. But when it came to rhythmic accuracy on the level of machine precision (5~50 milliseconds of rhythmic error), I didn't notice that kind of rhythmic error until later in 2013 (December), when I had gotten the experience in composing something very long via live MIDI + rhythmic fixes (a Bohemian Rhapsody instrumental recreation).

(That said, I consider myself pretty lucky to have the rhythmic precision I had in high school. It might have developed when I was taking piano lessons from 2004~2012.)

On 11/8/2015 at 2:58 PM, Garpocalypse said:

To give you an example of a key difference between someone with trained vs untrained ears, from an engineer's perspective, people with untrained ears can't detect a change in volume that is less than 5 db.  Compared to someone with trained ears that can detect a change in volume within 3db or less. This means you can quietly manipulate the listener's attention without disrupting how they are perceiving the piece of music. It's entirely possible that someone with untrained ears could notice something (or more importantly NOT notice something) that someone else would figure was just "good enough."  Such as an entrance for a lead instrument not being attention grabbing enough for the average listener to know it was there.

Loudness differences is something many people have trouble with, and I'm not surprised at what you said here. I agree that in general, many people who aren't accustomed to listening closely to volume changes have difficulty noticing them, and that 5 dB is a good general mark. I remember that before 2013, I didn't notice that zircon's "Vessel of the Void" as an album AND OCR solo track are both mastered at -3 dB, and if you look at the waveform, it's extremely obvious that someone other than zircon just lowered the volume in an audio editor by 3 dB. By around mid-2013 though, I ended up emailing zircon about it and he didn't realize that someone did that. (He said, "Maybe someone changed it for the project release? Not sure..")

As for that second part, I would guess that it might be due to simply being more familiar with what they are noticing. For instance, a hardcore guitarist would probably want to pay attention to a guitar in a rock song to figure out the tabs, while a hardcore drummer probably is trying to figure out the drum rhythm instead, and they may notice errors in aspects which they are respectively familiar with. (When I say "familiar" though, I mean REALLY familiar, and actively listening for and noticing errors in that particular aspect, not just being a great instrumentalist of that sort who doesn't challenge himself/herself to listen to errors within machine precision.)

-----

There is some speculation to all this though, as we've all developed particular skills at different times.

[Damashii!!]

And i'm talking quite in depth reviews, people actually took the time to post honest positive feedback.

 

 

 

 

If I'm hearing this correctly, you're saying it's cool for folks like me to continue typing those huge ass dissertations with 47 paragraphs about how dat filter sweep had me feelin some type of way, yeah?

 

 

 

hoooly shit, the forums are upgraded as fuck.

[DarkeSword]

that filter sweep tho

[avaris]

So I've been wondering about something. When I joined OCR in around 2008, seemed like there was a quite an interest in new mixposts. Mixes would get 10-20 reviews, 30-40 if you were lucky. And i'm talking quite in depth reviews, people actually took the time to post honest positive feedback.

 

Fast forward to 2015! - Now, seems like you're lucky to get 5-10 reviews. So my question is this - what happened?

 

Now... sure, YouTube is a new means of getting feedback, but its hardly the same in terms of the quality of the responses you'd get. Getting a "WOW THIS SOUNDS AMAZING" is a lot more common than getting an in-depth response on there, plus many of the comments lack that personal touch you'd get from people on OCR. The mass of comments, for me, made the long wait to get on OCR worth it, whereas now... you wait for about a year, and get a writeup from DJP and about 2 comments on the site. Seems a little anticlimactic compared to how it used to be. 

 

I'm just wondering why because personally, I never really looked at many new mixposts ever. I've always just looked at the stuff I wanted to after the fact and ignored the front page generally, so I can't really say what changed. 

 

So... 2 questions:

 

1: Why, if applicable, don't you comment on new mixposts on OCR?

2: How do you suggest the number of reviews is brought back up again?

 

 

1.  

I am frankly not motivated for several reasons.  It takes time to fill out an open ended question.  We could probably get way more reviews if people could fill out a few basic ratings in a form.  Quick ex. Creativity 1-7 stars; Arrangement 1-7 stars, Sound Quality 1-7 Stars 

If I had that and an option to write an open comment I would write/give more feedback.

 

2.

It has been said before but at a basic there is NO REWARD for posting reviews.  In any modern community you need a reward system that targets different motivations.  If you want to get super nerdy the Human Computer Interaction community has tons of papers and research into these exact types of system with plenty of startling numbers.

 

The community itself is too large and too over saturated.  Humans only gather in groups of a certain size.  Back in the day there were less people on the site so it was easier to establish relationships.  The best relationships I personally ever made on the site were doing projects.  Creating sub communities within OCR that contribute back to the overall goal of the site are necessary.

 

Here is the presentation from Google about sociability.  It contains some helpful info that has been relevant for thousands of years.  Just some food for thought:

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-the-presentation-that-inspired-google-2011-7?op=0#-43

 

 

Looking forward to the new site changes that will help OCR scale and build towards it future.

[Gario]

If you want a "reward" as simple as possible, make "reviews given" a statistic that's easily visible for the forum user. Bragging rights are actually worth something to plenty of people. Past that, including how many likes the person's reviews have received in their profile somewhere would encourage the user to create useful reviews.

It's not much, but it would allow some people to shine in their reviewing abilities in a way that isn't possible, as it is now.

[Eino Keskitalo]

I don't feel like I would want to see ratings on my tunes, I don't think I would find them useful. But it's interesting you say you might be more inclined to write open-ended comments to go with the ratings.

 

I'm reminded of that workshop forum checklist, which listed common problems found in the judges panel. Not sure if anything like this would apply to approved ReMixes' reviews, but perhaps the checklist could be more integrated to workshop commenting - like, you could actually check the items from the list when commenting on a WIP:

[Rozovian]

The Guidelines post is a big, intimidating mess for new users, and could probably be improved. A less formal "how do I review?" post might be more welcoming, and it could feature a checklist-like list of things you can say comment on, either as topics (creativity, sound quality...) and/or as a set or questions (did it remind you of anything, did it sound professional, would you dance to it) could make it easier for people who don't know what to say to say something. "Reviewing resources" might also work, with loads and loads of questions and checklists and ratings suggestions and things.

 

I agree about Avaris' point about community in particular. I've got some computer/time/priorities/music issues right now, but I'd like to get more community going in the workshop once I've sorted some other stuff out. If someone has the drive to do the same in reviews, that'd be awesome. Just not sure how that'd work, practically, since the workshop has plenty of places to talk about stuff, while reviews are more focused on... well, reviews. A set of subforums is an option, a subforum with subcommunity threads is an option, and gathering the community off-site is also an option (but maybe not the best for increasing forum activity).

 

I think one of the problems I have with reviewing is that the step from iTunes to the site is big. Can't check right now, but there should be a link conveniently from the tags straight to the song's page on ocr. If there isn't, there should be. If there is, it could be featured on the site as a way to more conveniently go from listening to reviewing. Searching by remix number (and consolidating search results from all search modes) would probably help, too, since it's currently a point and a click and a lot more letters to type to get from listening to reviewing that particular remix. Lowering the threshold by making the move from listening to reviewing faster and  more convenient should result in more reviews, assuming people got informed about it. That's what the front page is for, right?

[Gario]

I don't feel like I would want to see ratings on my tunes, I don't think I would find them useful.

I wouldn't want people's mixes to have a review system, either, nor would OCR ever implement one (it kind of defeats the purpose of a judging system, if popular review ends up dictating whether or not people listen to the music, anyway). Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was suggesting a sort of "likes-on-average" statistic to apply to a persons reviewing quality, not mix quality, so to encourage more thorough reviews than "Cool mix, bro!".

[Eino Keskitalo]

I was actually replying to Avaris' post; you slow-ninja'd a post in between. (-:

[WillRock]

I don't feel like I would want to see ratings on my tunes, I don't think I would find them useful.

There are ratings on Rainwave for all OC Remixes. Generally, I prefer to ignore them cause its easy to start overthinking them and comparing ratings.

[MES Records]

As far as I can tell this is out of OCRemix's hands. This phenomenon is not exclusive to this community, and it's a sad thing really.

 

Ever took the time to look through the communites, forums and blogs you used to visit when you were younger? Chances are they are all dead.

I was active in a lot of different communities and now they seem like ghost towns. A single post every few days (or hours if you're lucky) is keeping most of them barely alive. You can't even have a nice conversation anymore because people just left.

So where did they go to?

 

Well, there are exactly two answers here: Social Networks and Semi-Anonymous communties like YouTube and Reddit.

The thing is - people just don't seem to want to start meaningful conversations with strangers anymore. Ever seen the comments section of Facebook or YouTube? They are full of people talking past each other. Nobody cares what other people have to say - they just want to get their own stuff out there.

Reddit is the only place that's reminiscent of 'forums' from the past. But even here you should be able to see the difference: ever met someone nice through reddit? No? Neither have I. Reddit is a step up from Facebook and YouTube, but people still don't feel like people. They are just defined through their comments. I don't think anyone could meet anyone new here. I can't even remember anyone's name on Reddit and I've been browsing there for years now.

 

So, I think this whole trend is due to the fact that people just left forums to spend their time with social media instead. They don't care that much about making new contacts through the Internet anymore. Sure, some do, and there are some exceptions (like the Boardgamegeek community for example), but times have changed. It's really, really sad, but I just don't think there's any end to this.

Let's face it - forums are a thing from the past. Just like N64 and Super Nintendo they will never fade from our minds but just aren't relevant anymore in the grand scheme of things.

[Rozovian]

Well, there are exactly two answers here: Social Networks and Semi-Anonymous communties like YouTube and Reddit.

The thing is - people just don't seem to want to start meaningful conversations with strangers anymore. Ever seen the comments section of Facebook or YouTube? They are full of people talking past each other. Nobody cares what other people have to say - they just want to get their own stuff out there.

Reddit is the only place that's reminiscent of 'forums' from the past. But even here you should be able to see the difference: ever met someone nice through reddit? No? Neither have I. Reddit is a step up from Facebook and YouTube, but people still don't feel like people. They are just defined through their comments. I don't think anyone could meet anyone new here. I can't even remember anyone's name on Reddit and I've been browsing there for years now.

 

Let's face it - forums are a thing from the past. Just like N64 and Super Nintendo they will never fade from our minds but just aren't relevant anymore in the grand scheme of things.

 

Yes, we've moved from thread-based communication on forums to sets of unrelated comments (YT) or comment trees (reddit), or what social media overall seems to lean on: a more broadcasting-like form communication rather than interaction. And I agree with your assessment that users are more interested in getting their own stuff out there than in engaging with other people's stuff.

 

But I recognize plenty of names on reddit, plenty of whom are cool people. Those people, when you're starting out, are just a name and their comments, but over time, actually talking with them, they become people. You and I either have different approaches to reddit, or are just not hanging out in the same subs. In some of these subs, I see people actively seeking the opinions and expertise of others, repeatedly asking about things pertaining to their creative work. If that work is vgm remixes, they'd be much better served here, and that would build community.

 

But that's not an answer to the dwindling number of reviews on the site. That would probably be better addressed with consolidated comments from all sources, with more in-depth reviews probably coming from forum regulars who make it a habit to review stuff here.

[timaeus222]

Meanwhile, remix reviews are still lacking.

[Slimy]

I never want to hurt butts when I point this out but that's inevitable... it might be hard for a site that takes 6 months to a year for judgements to maintain an active member base. A year is a long time, by the time those judgements come out, people could have either given up with music entirely, or the feedback is irrelevant because they've improved.

 

OC ReMix doesn't have any Undertale remixes. And how could it if judging takes a year?

 

Also, YouTube has grown a lot, and has many remixes. Are they amateur? Yes, but I don't always care. Many of the remixes I loved on OC Remix ~2001-2003ish were amateur.

 

 

So, to answer the OP: It's because the new remixes that blow my balls off aren't exclusively on OC Remix anymore.